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Thread: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    Not they are not. The money taken from SS is not in the debt figures. We take it, spend it, issue SS an IOU, and THEN issue debt to make up the rest. That debt is displayed in Celticlord's figures. So yes, it's FAR worse than it looks.
    I know. That was my point.
    If you look at pure outlays v receipts for FY2008, the deficit was 458B
    But, the number he posted was considerably higher -- if it doesnt include the debt to SS, then why is it more?

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    Well, think of it this way: We are not going to fail to pay any of it. The voters will never allow the SS money to not get paid back. Never. Well, short of total bankruptcy anyway. So we do, in fact, have to worry about that, too. The voters would vote to default on T-notes before SS payments. I guarantee it. It would be stupid, sure. But we are talking about the US voter. Holders of our debt need to be more worried than Grandma does, regardless of the "enforceability" of the notes.
    The question is always how to present and quantify that number. That obligation is as yet uncertain--and has to be uncertain, because the future events that trigger the obligation have yet to occur. That the events will occur is not a question; what is a question is when, and thus what present dollar value should be assigned to that obligation. A dollar owed today is a larger debt than a dollar owed tomorrow, and far larger than a dollar owed next year.

    For that reason, it is necessary to differentiate between total public debt (money owed today) and social security obligations (money owed tomorrow and next year).

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    You are quite right when you say the "debt" is the number you provided. But it's far better to look at future "obligations" because THAT's what we will be paying.
    It's important to look at both--indeed, one cannot look at one and not the other and do the numbers justice overall. The amount of existing public debt defines the government's capacity to fund that future liability, for the trigger events that make that future liability a present liability will also compel the issuance of debt. The conversion of that future liability to a present liability is the transfer of that obligation into the total public debt figure.

    The key is the time factor. The future nature of the Social Security obligation means that number represents what the total public debt will be, unless alternative funding sources are identified and implemented.

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year - Yahoo! Finance

    Did anyone catch this part:



    $1.84T is >90% of the TOTAL of the deficts run under GWB.

    But dontchyaknow Goobie it's all Bush's fault.

    What is more stunning that even while admitting they are drowning the American tax payer in a sea of red ink and turning our currency into monopoly money they want to spend another several trillions on Government insured health insurance.

    You just cannot fabricate the level of criminal irresponsibility we are seeing from Democrats who lied about being "fiscally" more responsible than Republicans and who lied about pay as they go and who have done nothing but lie to the American people about how they will pay for all this irresponsible spending for purely partisan political reasons.

    When Bush was President all we heard from these cretins was how he needed to raise taxes....raise taxes....raise taxes. Now after spending trillions they don't have, not one tiny peep about raising taxes.

    I hope that by the end of this liars first term in office, the American people can wake up and see these Democrats for what they are; lying despicable assholes who don't give a rats behind about the American people, the poor or the hard working who start businesses and make the economy go.

    All we have gotten from this Administration has been hyper partisan legislation, lies, distortions and a deficit that makes all previous deficits look like chump change.

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The question is always how to present and quantify that number. That obligation is as yet uncertain--and has to be uncertain, because the future events that trigger the obligation have yet to occur. That the events will occur is not a question; what is a question is when, and thus what present dollar value should be assigned to that obligation. A dollar owed today is a larger debt than a dollar owed tomorrow, and far larger than a dollar owed next year.

    For that reason, it is necessary to differentiate between total public debt (money owed today) and social security obligations (money owed tomorrow and next year).
    I see your point. We do not know the exact amount of our future SS obligations. We do know, however, what those IOU's total. They should also have a "debt" clock for those. Even if the numbers are nebulous in terms of future payouts.


    The key is the time factor. The future nature of the Social Security obligation means that number represents what the total public debt will be, unless alternative funding sources are identified and implemented.
    Right. Which is why we need to get started on finding said sources! Because the potential debt numbers would scare the hell out of people.
    Last edited by stekim; 08-13-09 at 02:36 PM.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    A deep recession means that tax revenues fall off a cliff because individuals/businesses aren't making as much money to tax. It also means that tax expenditures will increase because there are more unemployment claims and more strains on anti-poverty programs...not to mention bailouts and stimuli.

    Hmm. Less tax revenue + more tax expenditure = Bigger deficit. How is this an excuse?

    10th grade economics fail.
    This has NOTHING to do with falling revenue; they passed trillions in UNFUNDED spending bills claiming they could BUY their way out of a recession on the back of the American people.

    When Bush spent us into a deficit fighting 9-11, two wars and Katrina, you were railing about his "Democrat" big spending I am sure. What vast hypocrisy or denial does it now take to acknowledge that Obama has taken irresponsible deficit spending into the stratosphere.

    Good lord, I don't know which is more pathetic, the excuse making or blaming Bush for everything.

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    When Bush was President all we heard from these cretins was how he needed to raise taxes....raise taxes....raise taxes. Now after spending trillions they don't have, not one tiny peep about raising taxes.
    You absolutely correct.
    Every single person that complained about GWBs deficits should be screaming at thr top of their lungs about The Obama's -- and if they are not, they've clearly illustrated how much of a partisan hack they really are.

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You absolutely correct.
    Every single person that complained about GWBs deficits should be screaming at thr top of their lungs about The Obama's -- and if they are not, they've clearly illustrated how much of a partisan hack they really are.
    Same the other way!
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    It should be noted that had the Bush Administration not kept signficant expenditures off-budget, the deficit would have been substantially higher. For example, during President Bush's last year in office, gross public debt rose by just over $1 trillion. In part, the recession's rapid deepening contributed. However, in part, earlier tax policy changes, the creation of Medicare Part D, and the off-budget treatment of such expenditures as the costs associated with the Iraq war also contributed. IMO, policy differences aside, transparency would be served by keeping all expenditures on-budget.

    Of course, the government is not alone in carrying out practices that limit transparency. In the private sector, major items e.g., derivatives exposures, etc., are generally maintained off the balance sheet, stock options are not expensed, etc.
    I keep hearing this inane "off budget" crapola; but in the end the deficit is the total of revenues less expenditures regardless of whether it was ON or OFF budget and the FACT remains that the largest of the Bush deficits was approximately $200 billion.

    I am fascinated that Liberals try to excuse the criminally irresponsible spending we are seeing from Democrats by continually pointing the finger at Bush; you're kidding me right???!!!


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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Not sort of. If the Government is carrying the debt on the books it is a debt owed to somebody. If I hold a T-bill, that's not a "debt payable to myself" that I can just write off whimsically.

    The total public debt is debt payable to somebody, at some juncture. There is no "sort of" about that.
    ....WITH interest. One of the largest components of the budget and soon to be even larger.

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    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    Not they are not. The money taken from SS is not in the debt figures. We take it, spend it, issue SS an IOU, and THEN issue debt to make up the rest. That debt is displayed in Celticlord's figures. So yes, it's FAR worse than it looks.
    This is an equally frightening practice that continues below the radar screen of public scrutiny.

    Great; now I am even MORE depressed by our future prospects with these idiots in charge.

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