Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 53

Thread: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

  1. #31
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 08:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. The difference is the IOUs given to the 'SocSec trust fund'.
    Debt is debt. The figure is the total amount owed by the government.

    Note: I revised my starting figure for FY2008. As the numbers posted are the numbers as of the end of the business day, the actual starting number for any period is the last period's closing number. Thus the correct statement of the public debt at the start of FY 2008 is the debt outstanding as of 30 September 2007, not 1 October 2007. As you can see, the differential is significant.

  2. #32
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 08:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    Sort of! Let's not forget that the deficit is reduced by the fact we borrow excess social security funds and spend them. We have a huge debt payable to ourselves.
    Not sort of. If the Government is carrying the debt on the books it is a debt owed to somebody. If I hold a T-bill, that's not a "debt payable to myself" that I can just write off whimsically.

    The total public debt is debt payable to somebody, at some juncture. There is no "sort of" about that.

  3. #33
    Walk with me in hell.
    stekim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    09-21-10 @ 12:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,106

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Not sort of. If the Government is carrying the debt on the books it is a debt owed to somebody. If I hold a T-bill, that's not a "debt payable to myself" that I can just write off whimsically.
    I think you misunderstood my post. The debt figure you provided DOES NOT include the IOU's to social security. Those are not in the form of T-bills, bonds or notes and they are not included in our national debt figures. Our national debt is far higher than the numbers you provided. Unless we just not pay social security back, of course.
    Last edited by stekim; 08-13-09 at 01:20 PM.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

  4. #34
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yep, a huge recession will do that.
    Just get rid of those libertarian symbols under your name already. Please.

    Anybody that has ever paid bills before will tell you that if you don't want to be in debt, you should stop spending so much money.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #35
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Debt is debt. The figure is the total amount owed by the government.
    Part of which is money that the government owes itself.
    All we do when we add in SocSec IOUs to the debt is exaggerate what we owe (and how much any given deficit is).

  6. #36
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 08:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    I think you misunderstood my post. The debt figure you provided DOES NOT include the IOU's to social security. Those are not in the form of T-bills, bonds or notes and they are not included in our national debt figures. Our national debt is far higher than the numbers you provided. Unless we just not pay social security back, of course.
    Ah...yes, the total public debt is not inclusive of Social Security IOUs.

    However, it is the total debt we need to worry about--it's the debt that has a legally enforceable debt instrument floating around in somebody's hands.

    The Social Security "IOUs" are really nothing of the sort. Government has simply spent the taxes collected via FICA on other things. The IOU is a sham device because it exists in the form of a special Treasury debt that can only be issued to (and redeemed by) the Social Security Administration. Because of this bit of fiscal legerdemain, the Social Security trust fund does not actually exist--not in the way we typically comprehend trust funds; it is not managed as a portfolio, it does not speculate in regular issue treasury securities. The trust fund and the IOUs are merely accounting devices to shift Social Security tax revenues into the general coffers, and to pull Social Security expenditures from the general coffers.

    The "debt" of Social Security is the huge (and growing) unfunded future liability as tax revenues slip below expenditures as the baby boom generation retires. That liability will cause future total public debt to skyrocket, as the Social Security Administration drains the trust of those special-purpose Treasury bonds, which, to fund their redemption, will compel the Treasury to issue regular marketable bonds. However, in terms of legally obligated and collectible debt denominated on debt instruments, the figures cited are the total public debt for the periods cited.

  7. #37
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 08:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Part of which is money that the government owes itself.
    All we do when we add in SocSec IOUs to the debt is exaggerate what we owe (and how much any given deficit is).
    As stekim pointed out, the Social Security IOUs are not part of the total public debt. Those IOUs exist as special issue Treasury bonds that by law can be issued only to the Social Security Administration and can only be redeemed by the Social Security Administration. They are not "public debt" as such, merely an accounting device to shift money in and out of the social security trust fund.

  8. #38
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    As stekim pointed out, the Social Security IOUs are not part of the total public debt. Those IOUs exist as special issue Treasury bonds that by law can be issued only to the Social Security Administration and can only be redeemed by the Social Security Administration. They are not "public debt" as such, merely an accounting device to shift money in and out of the social security trust fund.
    But, they are all included in the debt numbers you posted.

  9. #39
    Walk with me in hell.
    stekim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    09-21-10 @ 12:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,106

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Ah...yes, the total public debt is not inclusive of Social Security IOUs.

    However, it is the total debt we need to worry about--it's the debt that has a legally enforceable debt instrument floating around in somebody's hands.
    Well, think of it this way: We are not going to fail to pay any of it. The voters will never allow the SS money to not get paid back. Never. Well, short of total bankruptcy anyway. So we do, in fact, have to worry about that, too. The voters would vote to default on T-notes before SS payments. I guarantee it. It would be stupid, sure. But we are talking about the US voter. Holders of our debt need to be more worried than Grandma does, regardless of the "enforceability" of the notes.

    The Social Security "IOUs" are really nothing of the sort. Government has simply spent the taxes collected via FICA on other things. The IOU is a sham device because it exists in the form of a special Treasury debt that can only be issued to (and redeemed by) the Social Security Administration.
    I never said different. I only said it's getting paid back and needs to be included when talking about future obligations of the U.S. government.

    Because of this bit of fiscal legerdemain, the Social Security trust fund does not actually exist--not in the way we typically comprehend trust funds; it is not managed as a portfolio, it does not speculate in regular issue treasury securities. The trust fund and the IOUs are merely accounting devices to shift Social Security tax revenues into the general coffers, and to pull Social Security expenditures from the general coffers.
    I am well aware of that.

    The "debt" of Social Security is the huge (and growing) unfunded future liability as tax revenues slip below expenditures as the baby boom generation retires. That liability will cause future total public debt to skyrocket, as the Social Security Administration drains the trust of those special-purpose Treasury bonds, which, to fund their redemption, will compel the Treasury to issue regular marketable bonds. However, in terms of legally obligated and collectible debt denominated on debt instruments, the figures cited are the total public debt for the periods cited.
    I never said differently. I only said (again) that you can bet your ass the SS money "borrowed" over the years is getting paid back, regardless of its status as a "legally obligated and collectible debt denominated on debt instrument". When it comes to the SS money you are merely arguing semantics because the tax payer will make sure the government remains obligated for said payments. So to exclude that from our future obligations is simply acting like a governmental bureaucrat (which I realize you are not).

    You are quite right when you say the "debt" is the number you provided. But it's far better to look at future "obligations" because THAT's what we will be paying.
    Last edited by stekim; 08-13-09 at 02:07 PM.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

  10. #40
    Walk with me in hell.
    stekim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    09-21-10 @ 12:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,106

    Re: Federal deficit higher in July, $1.27T this year

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    But, they are all included in the debt numbers you posted.
    Not they are not. The money taken from SS is not in the debt figures. We take it, spend it, issue SS an IOU, and THEN issue debt to make up the rest. That debt is displayed in Celticlord's figures. So yes, it's FAR worse than it looks.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •