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Thread: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Admiral Dennis Blair disagrees with you. He is on record as saying they did work.

    Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Leon Panetta believes they can work, and indicated as such in his confirmation hearing.

    Panetta Open to Tougher Methods in Some C.I.A. Interrogation

    Even Dear Leader acknowledges the techniques work.

    Obama Calls It "Torture" on Prime Time | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet
    And yet none of the people quoted above stated that any of these method actually yielded actionable intelligence that stopped any plots. Which is the whole reasoning many on the right have used to defend them. Obama clearly said the same information could have been yielded by regular methods. Blair stated we got organizational information on Al-Qaida which is the same kind of information we could have gotten through normal interrogations.

    The fact is torture is illegal under US and international Law. Even Saint Ronnie was against torture:

    "The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."
    Lets not forget to mention that waterboarding is a technique we picked up from the Koreans during the Korean war which was used to elicit false confessions from POWs. Waterboarding is not a successful method of interrogation and it was such a touchy subject the FBI was told once it was used to stay away from it by Director Mueller. Even the CIA had qualms to the point that they asked for legal cover after they had already begun.

    Besides waterboarding several cases of detainees have been killed by other extreme methods used at Baghram, Abu Ghraib and Gitmo and the military has several active investigations into their deaths. What we must remember as a civilized country is that many of these detainees have not been charged with a crime yet. Until they are they are detainees. Also a fair amount of the detainees came from when we offered bounties to warlords, who in turn turned over random people fro the money.

    Torture is abhorrent to civilized society and once upon a time the majority found it not to even be a subject worth discussing. It is against our values.

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    This is not political...this is about our restoring country's integrity. Our country's ability to look beyond politics and DO THE RIGHT THING. These investigations are needed to heal the country...It is not about covering up people's lies and deceit...it is not about politicians using good troops to carry out evil unlawful acts and then cowar behind those very troops who were following the orders of those very politicians who are doing the cowaring.

    This process might just hurt alittle but in the end we will all be better off for it.
    Not political? This is nothing but political.

    What is going to be created, is an environment where people are doing nothing more than CYA. When you have a group of people conducting CYA strategies and only doing the minimum so they don't get fired, nothing will get done. WOuld you run a business with people who only do the minimum?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    A distinction without a difference
    Funny that they should have asked for explicit clarification for a decades old policy. Also it should be noted that teh WH made special efforts to produce documents to explain the legal basis of a decades old practice.
    Maybe you are somewhat mistaken.
    YMMV
    Maybe you can prove me wrong? I dunno if you can, but maybe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #34
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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Not political? This is nothing but political.

    What is going to be created, is an environment where people are doing nothing more than CYA. When you have a group of people conducting CYA strategies and only doing the minimum so they don't get fired, nothing will get done. WOuld you run a business with people who only do the minimum?
    Would you run a business using strategies that have been proven not to work? Would you run a business that skirts around the law? This isn't CYA, CYA was when Bush told the aide during the August memo that he had covered his ass by telling him about it. What's illegal is still illegal apdst

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    This isn't a very sound line of reasoning.
    I disagree. If do as my employer asks, so long as what he/she asks is legal, I should not be subject to criminal prosecution for doing so. If the legality of those duties changes at a later date, I should not be prosecuted for performing those duties during the time they were legal.




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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    I disagree. If do as my employer asks, so long as what he/she asks is legal, I should not be subject to criminal prosecution for doing so. If the legality of those duties changes at a later date, I should not be prosecuted for performing those duties during the time they were legal.
    But that's the thing the legality of the duties didn't change only the duty itself. The legality of it has remained constant. If your employer tells you something is legal when its not that doesn't make you any less culpable.

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by PogueMoran View Post
    But that's the thing the legality of the duties didn't change only the duty itself. The legality of it has remained constant. If your employer tells you something is legal when its not that doesn't make you any less culpable.
    Let us know when the Islamic suicidal Fanatics still trying to kill us,,,decide to listen to you. They'd laugh in your face,,,and then cut your throat. All the while yelling Allahu Akbar.

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by hiswoman View Post
    I disagree. If do as my employer asks, so long as what he/she asks is legal, I should not be subject to criminal prosecution for doing so. If the legality of those duties changes at a later date, I should not be prosecuted for performing those duties during the time they were legal.
    Article I Section 9 of the Constitution precludes the enacting of ex post facto laws. Congress is prohibited from criminalizing an act after the fact then prosecuting the original actors.

    The deed done in 2003 is not retroactively made criminal in 2009--no amount of pontification or prevarication by Queen Nancy or any other Anti-Republican can alter that Constitutional reality.

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by PogueMoran View Post
    Would you run a business using strategies that have been proven not to work? Would you run a business that skirts around the law? This isn't CYA, CYA was when Bush told the aide during the August memo that he had covered his ass by telling him about it. What's illegal is still illegal apdst
    Making everyone afraid for their job, because of some unknown BS don't work. That's personel management 101.

    You're sending a message to all the people who serve in the intel services, as well as the military, that their government won't back them up for doing what the government told them to do. There's no more a disfunctional way to run things than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Criminal investigation into CIA treatment of detainees expected [edited]

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1 View Post
    Let us know when the Islamic suicidal Fanatics still trying to kill us,,,decide to listen to you. They'd laugh in your face,,,and then cut your throat. All the while yelling Allahu Akbar.
    Let me know when suicidal fanatics have actually tried to kill you. I remember 9/11 pretty vividly and remember walking around the city the following week seeing all the missing persons posters but that doesn't make me live my life in fear. There's a right way and a wrong way to go about things.

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