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Thread: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

  1. #51
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    We should certainly include any educational benefits covered by the government in our cost assessment of Medicare, Medicaid and the VA system as it would give an accurate picture of the true costs.

    You are failing to get the point that if the government adds more people, supplies, and other expenses to itself to cover the new inclusion of government health care, that is apart of the total cost.
    Er I believe the whole discussion was about administrative cost differences between UHC systems and the US system. What does what you are saying have to do with that? Even the administrative costs of your own government run healthcare systems show lower costs than in the private system. So answer me this.. is there a single administrative system for all healthcare providers that gives easy but secure access to patient records and billing?

    They make more money by having healthy people under their insurance plans, so it only makes sense to make sure people get healthy quicker.
    No, you make more money by dumping those that are seriously ill and most likely terminal at an early stage. Sorry but your fairytale world is just not fact.. it is pure fiction.

    Ah you found it. At least they got that footnote right, although I never thought I would see a supposed serious think tank use a date site for expats as source material...

    Listen I can easily concede that there are waiting lists in Spain because every system has waiting lists even the US system. As for the information in this document, I can not confirm any of the material in it from any sources nor from personal experience. My family and I have always received access to specialists when we needed it, and yes when there was no direct need then we waited a few weeks and that is somehow bad? That I wait 2 to 4 weeks for my yearly check up is some how bad? If I do have a serious issue (god forbid) then I will get the treatment I need and I will get it fast.

    You seem to be focusing a lot on waiting lists and nothing on the costs of things. Facts are facts. The US spends more per capita than anyone by far, and yet the return is not exactly "huge".

    But for the sake of argument..

    Guide to the Spanish healthcare system (page 3) < Healthcare | Expatica Spain

    from the same dating page.

    So we can't use our cultural differences to support our health care system but it counts for you.
    I got it, you have a double standard in your measurements of quality.

    Seeing as the U.S. has retirement facilities that provide general health care to it's residents would add on to the cost of overall health care.

    So far I've pointed out your double standard and have spoon fed you the information directly from the source.
    Something you could of found yourself.

    It's a health care issue as these places provide health care in the U.S.

    So you can't always make a straight comparison with cost because we do things differently than you guys do.
    It's incredibly short sighted to this without putting it into proper context.
    Fine if you can provide evidence that retirement facilitates costs are included in the over all US healthcare bill then fine. But remember if you can take out those, so can we if they are included in ours .. right?

    How is it right to make someone pay taxes for a UHC system and then force them to go outside of it and pay again to get needed treatment?
    And where is that happening? Not here. You have a choice, use the public system and deal with the limited waiting lists, or pay your way to get ahead of the line. What is wrong with that? It is happening every day in the US. People with money are paying for the right to behead of the line and curve when it comes to healthcare, where as those with no insurance have to wait to get real sick and end up in the emergency room for treatment.

    So it's ok that it doesn't have these things because its apart of Africa?

    It is part of the Spain, do you have something against North Africans or people who live there?
    Considering you suppose come from the party of financial responsibility.. Okay let me spell it out. The total population is 150.000 people, in 2 enclaves on the African coast. They are several hundred miles apart from each other and several hundred miles from the Spanish mainland. So you are saying that it is cost effect to put 2 MRI machines in these 2 provinces to cater for 70ishk people each? And if it means that those 2 machines are then not put in areas will millions of people? Are you serious?

    I can't read Spanish very well but this seems to be the direct paper published in 2006.

    http://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/edu/v10n3/art2.pdf
    And? My numbers are universally accepted.. from 2 international sources and they get their information from local governments, aka the Spanish and US governments... why are you linking that report? Just admit that the Cato report is based at best old information and at worst on false information.

    I've pointed out several of your mistaken "flaws" and have further linked you to the direct places to further read the information.
    You have pointed out jack**** expect you found the dating site article.

    You can't make people take care of themselves, even if it is cheaper it won't make someone stop eating garbage, stop being alcoholics, stop doing drugs, etc.

    You can't change this with any health care system except one that makes examples out of stupid choices.
    No you cant, but that some how should mean that we should not care for people who get sick?

    I hope your uncle is better as I have had 3 knee surgeries and it can have a life long impact.

    It's wrong for him to have to pay taxes for health care and then have to pay again to get quick service.
    Why? Those taxes go for coverage for him, his 3 kids and his wife. What is wrong in that? The knee surgery was paid by his company because they wanted him back faster than the 1 month or so he would have to wait for the surgery in the public system. Is that some how a crime now? That was a business call by the company he works for. It was cheaper for them to pay for his surgery to get him back, than find a replacement for the limited time he was out. I seriously cant believe that you would be against such a thing nor be critical of it... pathetic.

    The lack of waiting lists is one and the higher cost is another.
    WHO ranks use number 1 in timely care.
    Lack of waiting lists? Dont you mean shorter waiting lists? Or are you claiming there are no waiting lists in the US?

    Still Waiting For Mammogram - New York Times

    Daily Kos: State of the Nation

    That is one hell of a long time.. far longer than in Europe...

    It takes no stand on abortion other than to say that people in Europe and Cuba are more likely to use it to get rid of problem pregnancies than they are here, it is a cultural and policy difference.

    It doesn't say that abortion is right or wrong.
    And yet it uses it as an excuse for more babies die right after birth in the US. That American women choose to give birth to children they know have a very poor chance of living, rather than abortion. Question is then, how many of these "cases" are there in the US?

    But okay how do you explain why more mothers die at birth in the US than in most European countries?

    I agree the cost is huge, there is a purpose for it though.

    That is to slow demand and have services ready for people who need them and not for people with stupid **** that don't need a doctors services.
    So you agree it is a huge cost, and yet you dont want to do anything about it.. /clap. Almost every medical expert agrees that preventive care is the best way to cut costs.

    Your right, the government drops the ball on this as well, yet another reason I am against government health care.
    You are blaming your government for this? Does government not require rules and regulation to be handed down from legislators and then funding attached? And then it is some how the governments fault that your congressmen are either lazy or dont care? You do know that your "right wing" lot had 6 years of absolute rule to do something about this right, and what did you do?

    It is a WHO report, see Ibid and previous entry.
    Ibid is scholar speak for "look at last footnote" and the footnote before that, states.. WHO, nothing else. This article has serious issues with its footnotes.

    Not to mention the WHO report it supposedly cites is what.. almost 10 years old?

    How about something newer?

    Why Not the Best? Results from the National Scorecard on U.S. Health System Performance, 2008 - The Commonwealth Fund

    Kinda blows your whole world view out of the water... but hey.

    Doctor/patient confidentiality is very big in the U.S.
    And it aint over here?!?! Give me a break lol...

    It is not a right wing think tank, for the love of everything holy, it is a libertarian think tank and I have checked the sources and have provided them for you.

    Libertarians do not equal right wing, republican, or conservative.
    Give me a break, it is right wing period. Putting new words on the same thing, does not mean that it is any different. Just look it up on the web and you get things like Reagan, Goldwater and other Republicans, and Cato linked to the Republican revolution and such.
    PeteEU

  2. #52
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Er I believe the whole discussion was about administrative cost differences between UHC systems and the US system. What does what you are saying have to do with that? Even the administrative costs of your own government run healthcare systems show lower costs than in the private system. So answer me this.. is there a single administrative system for all healthcare providers that gives easy but secure access to patient records and billing?
    It's an example of how costs are hidden.
    If something isn't under the governments department of health it isn't included in health care expenditures.

    Nope.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No, you make more money by dumping those that are seriously ill and most likely terminal at an early stage. Sorry but your fairytale world is just not fact.. it is pure fiction.
    You seriously don't know what your talking about. Everyone is Europe seems to believe that health care is so out of reach for everyone. Is that what your news tells you?

    I was wrong about who denies more claims.
    Medicare and Mass Health (Massachusetts state gov health care) deny more patients than private insurers, Mass Health denies more claims than all the top 4 insures combined do.

    "As the largest payer in the United States, the Centers for Medicare and
    Medicaid Services has annually conducted Medicare fee-for-service claim audits for nearly a decade. Its studies compute provider compliance error rates, which measure the percentage of claims that should have resulted in a payment denial. For 2004, the Medicare carrier claim audit identified a denial rate of 24 percent of all claims filed.
    "

    Medicare isn't for profit, why are they denying so many more claims?

    "A 2003 claim study by the HIAA also confirmed a double-digit incidence of claim denials. HIAA’s study of 14 health plans and the claim data of 26 million
    Americans over a one-week period found that 14 percent of claims were denied. This denial rate of one out of seven claims was calculated after claims were already in the payers’ claim systems via electronic file
    or paper data entry.
    "

    Those insurance companies don't deny as many claims as the government program, Whatever your getting your news from is probably being a bit sensationalist.
    That state program is taking longer to pay and denying more claims again.

    Insurers ranked on payment records - The Boston Globe


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Ah you found it. At least they got that footnote right, although I never thought I would see a supposed serious think tank use a date site for expats as source material...
    You call it a date site and it says at the top that it is an international news and networking site.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Listen I can easily concede that there are waiting lists in Spain because every system has waiting lists even the US system. As for the information in this document, I can not confirm any of the material in it from any sources nor from personal experience. My family and I have always received access to specialists when we needed it, and yes when there was no direct need then we waited a few weeks and that is somehow bad? That I wait 2 to 4 weeks for my yearly check up is some how bad? If I do have a serious issue (god forbid) then I will get the treatment I need and I will get it fast.

    You seem to be focusing a lot on waiting lists and nothing on the costs of things. Facts are facts. The US spends more per capita than anyone by far, and yet the return is not exactly "huge".
    It has to spend more per capita, I have shown you that we have to expand the health care facilities in the U.S. to be able to treat all the baby boomers.

    I'm betting dollars to donuts, that the costs will come down in about 5-10 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I didn't say your whole health care system is terrible, I'm saying that to compare the two isn't easy and that we shouldn't take politicians or uninformed individuals word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Fine if you can provide evidence that retirement facilitates costs are included in the over all US healthcare bill then fine. But remember if you can take out those, so can we if they are included in ours .. right?
    I have found articles for everything, I'm not chasing anymore ghosts.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And where is that happening? Not here. You have a choice, use the public system and deal with the limited waiting lists, or pay your way to get ahead of the line. What is wrong with that? It is happening every day in the US. People with money are paying for the right to behead of the line and curve when it comes to healthcare, where as those with no insurance have to wait to get real sick and end up in the emergency room for treatment.
    How is that right?
    To have to pay twice for something you should pay once for?

    Insurance is obtainable, there are people who choose not to buy it.
    You can't make people do responsible things and there should be punishment for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Considering you suppose come from the party of financial responsibility.. Okay let me spell it out. The total population is 150.000 people, in 2 enclaves on the African coast. They are several hundred miles apart from each other and several hundred miles from the Spanish mainland. So you are saying that it is cost effect to put 2 MRI machines in these 2 provinces to cater for 70ishk people each? And if it means that those 2 machines are then not put in areas will millions of people? Are you serious?
    I'm not a republican, I do not support republicans and I have not voted in the past two elections.

    The city north of me has approximately 30k people in it with 2 hospitals, multiple clinics, imaging equipment and so on.
    It's a foreign concept to me that it doesn't already have those devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And? My numbers are universally accepted.. from 2 international sources and they get their information from local governments, aka the Spanish and US governments... why are you linking that report? Just admit that the Cato report is based at best old information and at worst on false information.

    No you cant, but that some how should mean that we should not care for people who get sick?
    Cato is using old information. It happens :shrugs

    We should care for people who get sick and they should pay for it.
    It's really that simple to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why? Those taxes go for coverage for him, his 3 kids and his wife. What is wrong in that? The knee surgery was paid by his company because they wanted him back faster than the 1 month or so he would have to wait for the surgery in the public system. Is that some how a crime now? That was a business call by the company he works for. It was cheaper for them to pay for his surgery to get him back, than find a replacement for the limited time he was out. I seriously cant believe that you would be against such a thing nor be critical of it... pathetic.
    His company shouldn't have to pay extra for something he has already paid for, it's absolute garbage to have to pay twice for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Lack of waiting lists? Dont you mean shorter waiting lists? Or are you claiming there are no waiting lists in the US?

    Still Waiting For Mammogram - New York Times

    Daily Kos: State of the Nation

    That is one hell of a long time.. far longer than in Europe...
    For a mammography in NYC, I can believe that.
    It's one of the most densely populated and most expensive cities in the U.S.

    I've never had to wait for any procedure in my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And yet it uses it as an excuse for more babies die right after birth in the US. That American women choose to give birth to children they know have a very poor chance of living, rather than abortion. Question is then, how many of these "cases" are there in the US?

    But okay how do you explain why more mothers die at birth in the US than in most European countries?
    Don't know but I do know that people from Mexico who haven't had prenatal care do come over the border to gain citizenship when they are about to give birth. Although it may not be a big cause of this number.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So you agree it is a huge cost, and yet you dont want to do anything about it.. /clap. Almost every medical expert agrees that preventive care is the best way to cut costs.
    Shift costs around still makes it cost the same.
    Waiting lists save money though and that's really one of the best ways to hold it down.

    I just completely disagree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    You are blaming your government for this? Does government not require rules and regulation to be handed down from legislators and then funding attached? And then it is some how the governments fault that your congressmen are either lazy or dont care? You do know that your "right wing" lot had 6 years of absolute rule to do something about this right, and what did you do?
    I'm not right wing so it's not my game to play.
    Politicians don't do whats best for everyone in the long run, they do what gets them the most votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Ibid is scholar speak for "look at last footnote" and the footnote before that, states.. WHO, nothing else. This article has serious issues with its footnotes.

    Not to mention the WHO report it supposedly cites is what.. almost 10 years old?

    How about something newer?

    Why Not the Best? Results from the National Scorecard on U.S. Health System Performance, 2008 - The Commonwealth Fund

    Kinda blows your whole world view out of the water... but hey.
    Not really as I have briefly looked over it and I have problems with many of their judging factors.
    That is for another time, as I'm not getting into right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And it aint over here?!?! Give me a break lol...
    I never said it wasn't, you questioned what it means and I gave you my best answer. I don't know how the WHO judges it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Give me a break, it is right wing period. Putting new words on the same thing, does not mean that it is any different. Just look it up on the web and you get things like Reagan, Goldwater and other Republicans, and Cato linked to the Republican revolution and such.
    Please prove it, because just like every other political affiliation there are multiple branches there of.
    Your showing your lack of knowledge in American politics and your bigoted approach is pretty annoying.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #53
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It's an example of how costs are hidden.
    If something isn't under the governments department of health it isn't included in health care expenditures.
    Says who?

    Nope.
    Ahh and you really think that administrative costs are lower when 10 insurance companies use 10 different systems to do this.. okay...

    You call it a date site and it says at the top that it is an international news and networking site.
    Okay and companies claim every day they are the best in the world.. dont make them the best in the world does it? I have for one never ever heard of the site or come across it. And if you google expat then if it is a "top news site and networking site" then it should pop up there on the first page right? It dont on my page..

    It has to spend more per capita, I have shown you that we have to expand the health care facilities in the U.S. to be able to treat all the baby boomers.

    I'm betting dollars to donuts, that the costs will come down in about 5-10 years.
    And I have shown the opposite.

    Bad debt triggers hospital closings around U.S. - Health care- msnbc.com

    Another example.

    I have found articles for everything, I'm not chasing anymore ghosts.
    Eh? you found and linked evidence of retirement homes being part of the US healthcare bill? Where?

    How is that right?
    To have to pay twice for something you should pay once for?

    Insurance is obtainable, there are people who choose not to buy it.
    You can't make people do responsible things and there should be punishment for it.
    Where do you get the idea he is paying for it twice?

    I'm not a republican, I do not support republicans and I have not voted in the past two elections.
    And yet you have the same narcissistic views. And not voted ... sigh, then some would say you have no right to be critical of anything since you have not participated in the democratic process for a decade or so.

    The city north of me has approximately 30k people in it with 2 hospitals, multiple clinics, imaging equipment and so on.
    It's a foreign concept to me that it doesn't already have those devices.
    I call it a highly ineffective use of resource's to have 2 hospitals service only 30k people.

    Cato is using old information. It happens :shrugs


    We should care for people who get sick and they should pay for it.
    It's really that simple to me.
    Yes it is simple is it not, however that is exactly what we are doing in a UHC system. Only difference is that people are not stressed out by things like going bankrupt due to medical bills..

    His company shouldn't have to pay extra for something he has already paid for, it's absolute garbage to have to pay twice for it.
    What is absolute garbage is your comments. First off he has not "paid" for his treatment. He has paid taxes that contribute to a system that can pay for a system for him, his 3 kids, his wife, his mother father, sisters, cousins and so on if need be. His company paid for the surgery, there by not only getting back their employee faster but saving money on a replacement. On top of that it also meant that someone else would get their surgery faster because my uncle does not need.

    For a mammography in NYC, I can believe that.
    It's one of the most densely populated and most expensive cities in the U.S.
    But you claimed there were no waiting lists, or at least implied so

    I've never had to wait for any procedure in my life
    .

    Neither have I, but that dont mean they do not exist.

    Don't know but I do know that people from Mexico who haven't had prenatal care do come over the border to gain citizenship when they are about to give birth. Although it may not be a big cause of this number.
    LOL now you blaming the Mexicans for your ****ty record? Pathetic!

    Shift costs around still makes it cost the same.
    Waiting lists save money though and that's really one of the best ways to hold it down.

    I just completely disagree with it.
    Now you starting to make no sense.

    I'm not right wing so it's not my game to play.
    Politicians don't do whats best for everyone in the long run, they do what gets them the most votes.
    that is the key difference between your politicians and ours.

    Not really as I have briefly looked over it and I have problems with many of their judging factors.
    That is for another time, as I'm not getting into right now.
    Of course you do, it is not from a biased right wing source.

    I never said it wasn't, you questioned what it means and I gave you my best answer. I don't know how the WHO judges it.
    Okay...

    Please prove it, because just like every other political affiliation there are multiple branches there of.
    Your showing your lack of knowledge in American politics and your bigoted approach is pretty annoying.
    I aint the one hiding behind the "libertarian" tag just because the Republican brand has a bad name at this time. I aint the one hiding behind the "libertarian" tag to avoid being called a right winger.

    As for my approach, it is based on past experience. A bird is still a bird regardless if you call it a chicken, turkey or humming bird.. it is still a bird.

    But lets leave it here, since we are going around and around and around, and far from the original article, which I have shown was faulty and biased.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I aint the one hiding behind the "libertarian" tag just because the Republican brand has a bad name at this time. I aint the one hiding behind the "libertarian" tag to avoid being called a right winger.

    As for my approach, it is based on past experience. A bird is still a bird regardless if you call it a chicken, turkey or humming bird.. it is still a bird.

    But lets leave it here, since we are going around and around and around, and far from the original article, which I have shown was faulty and biased.
    It just goes to show that again you only have contempt and get personal for those that don't agree with you, which is largely why you are marginalized in most debates and on this board.
    I have tried several times to get along with you in a cordial way and every time you shrug it off and go right back to getting personal.

    I don't hide behind any tag for my beliefs but libertarian best describes me, it is you and others like you that can't justify your reasoning other than "izz goood" that go around dumping on others.

    This debate has personally shown me that you are ignorant of economics, you almost always ignore data contrary to your beliefs and when you get cornered, you get personal.

    If anyone is hiding it is you with your centrist leaning, yea right.
    I'm still waiting to for you to show me the data was faulty and biased though.
    The best you could do was say some of it was old, but that's alright, I have showed you again and again that overall government health care is inferior to market based care and you ignore it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It just goes to show that again you only have contempt and get personal for those that don't agree with you, which is largely why you are marginalized in most debates and on this board.
    I have tried several times to get along with you in a cordial way and every time you shrug it off and go right back to getting personal.
    LOL get a grip. I disagree with you because you have provided evidence that is at best highly suspect to prove your point as I have shown but you have ignored. On top of that part of the data was 10 years old. Provide new raw data with methodology, and then we can settle this once and for all. I have provide article after article disputing many of your claims and these articles are about a year old at worst.

    I don't hide behind any tag for my beliefs but libertarian best describes me, it is you and others like you that can't justify your reasoning other than "izz goood" that go around dumping on others.
    And I still fail to see what your supposed political ideology has to do with the original article. I have answered you on this issue because you brought it up and tried to distance yourself from the right wing.. but this in fact is nothing but a smoke screen to get away from the real aspects of this debate .. and yes I fell for it.

    I claim with proof that the CATO institute at best has right wing ideas, and at worst is a mouth piece of the right. Its history shows this. On top of that the original article was written in a the right leaning WSJ and the title it self is highly miss leading to say the least. The contents are biased and pick up situations that are common in the US and turn them into a "negative" for the French system!

    This debate has personally shown me that you are ignorant of economics, you almost always ignore data contrary to your beliefs and when you get cornered, you get personal.
    Hahaha you get better and better. What this has shown me is that you are the one that is fixated on certain aspects of the very complex issue of healthcare and yet ignore any and all aspects that shine negatively on the US.

    As for my supposed ignorance of economics... I am not the one that finds outlandish theoretical excuse to explain the higher cost of US healthcare without providing evidence of this. The training of doctors thing was especially entertaining.

    And I am not the one who actually floated the idea that the more cost the better.... something that goes against so much in economics and in reality. In fact I pointed out cost benefit issues in many of the examples we debated including the Spanish enclaves in Northern Africa and the French woman her baby, something you totally ignored.

    If we were to follow your "ideas" on the issue, then we would have to take into account just about the whole government budget as "healthcare", and even here you would loose, because we would have to do the same in the US, public or private. You want to add the French doctors training to the French healthcare bill.. fine lets say it is not there, and add it.. but then we need to make sure that the US doctors are treated in the same way right?

    I'm still waiting to for you to show me the data was faulty and biased though.
    I have, several times.

    Let me remind you of a few. Articles claim the US has more doctors than France and other nations.. false.

    Article makes a big thing of a woman giving birth to a child in a fire truck, despite the baby being 1 month early and in conjunction it totally ignores the fact that this happens in the US also. Just google new york baby and cab.

    You claim "economic prowess" and yet you fail to understand that spending money on a birthing facility in a rural area of France that caters to less than 300 births a year (less than one a day), is financially "sound" idea since only 30 miles away there is similar facility.

    You also ignore the cost benefit issues on a number of things. Instead you are promoting the idea that spending more is somehow better, to which I have countered time and time again with statistics that show that despite the 20 to 40% more spending by the US, life expectancy is not higher, infant mortality is not lower, coverage is not universal and so on. In fact in many cases it is worse off. And what do you do then.. blame Mexicans and immigrants.

    And of course you ignore the articles (new articles) I have provided showing hospital closings and loss of hospital beds over the last decade, not to mention closing of emergency rooms.

    So what is more important, 2 enclaves having an MRI machine each or a major city in the US loosing a hospital or 2 plus an emergency room or 2?

    Now instead you come with the claim without proof, that the US can "handle" less hospital beds because you some how are fixing people up faster and have a faster turn around.. again without any proof.. and that is sad because if you had bothered to look for proof you would have found it some what. Plus it goes against your other claim that the US is investing in hospital facilities for the future..

    The best you could do was say some of it was old, but that's alright, I have showed you again and again that overall government health care is inferior to market based care and you ignore it.
    You have shown nothing but the fact you have more MRI machines than anyone else.. wupti do! Oh yea lets not forget the cancer thing.. kudos on that....you are marginally ahead there.. And yet the rest of the world leads the US in a majority of statistics including how long people live and of course cost, which when it comes down to things are the 2 most important statistics around in any situation, especially cost.. which you again ignore.

    Face it, you were linked an article by a friend and ate it hook line and sink without checking the article. When you then are called on the factual issues in the article, you provide another faulty report that is 10 years old and when that is debunked, then you turn wild theoretical with no factual proof ideas on why things are like they are.. it is a classic .. **** I got caught, now I must save face by blurring the issue, attacking the one that outed me and in the end stick to my opinions even though they have been disproved over and over again.

    thanks for the debate.
    PeteEU

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL get a grip. I disagree with you because you have provided evidence that is at best highly suspect to prove your point as I have shown but you have ignored. On top of that part of the data was 10 years old. Provide new raw data with methodology, and then we can settle this once and for all. I have provide article after article disputing many of your claims and these articles are about a year old at worst.

    And I still fail to see what your supposed political ideology has to do with the original article. I have answered you on this issue because you brought it up and tried to distance yourself from the right wing.. but this in fact is nothing but a smoke screen to get away from the real aspects of this debate .. and yes I fell for it.

    I claim with proof that the CATO institute at best has right wing ideas, and at worst is a mouth piece of the right. Its history shows this. On top of that the original article was written in a the right leaning WSJ and the title it self is highly miss leading to say the least. The contents are biased and pick up situations that are common in the US and turn them into a "negative" for the French system!
    See when you fail to read the rest of the site and it's policy studies and it's other opinions besides health care you'd find out but that's cool bro.

    Nothing will change your mind, don't care anymore because your just a partisan Euro centric hack.

    You claimed the article was right wing, instead of disputing the facts of the article, it's a weak mans argument. Can't handle the facts, attack the source.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Hahaha you get better and better. What this has shown me is that you are the one that is fixated on certain aspects of the very complex issue of healthcare and yet ignore any and all aspects that shine negatively on the US.

    As for my supposed ignorance of economics... I am not the one that finds outlandish theoretical excuse to explain the higher cost of US healthcare without providing evidence of this. The training of doctors thing was especially entertaining.

    And I am not the one who actually floated the idea that the more cost the better.... something that goes against so much in economics and in reality. In fact I pointed out cost benefit issues in many of the examples we debated including the Spanish enclaves in Northern Africa and the French woman her baby, something you totally ignored.

    If we were to follow your "ideas" on the issue, then we would have to take into account just about the whole government budget as "healthcare", and even here you would loose, because we would have to do the same in the US, public or private. You want to add the French doctors training to the French healthcare bill.. fine lets say it is not there, and add it.. but then we need to make sure that the US doctors are treated in the same way right?
    You pointed out that it's ok for some people not to have access to medical equipment because there are less of them. So when they pay their taxes what are they paying for?

    Doctors in the U.S. pay their own bills for the most part, that is the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I have, several times.

    Let me remind you of a few. Articles claim the US has more doctors than France and other nations.. false.

    Article makes a big thing of a woman giving birth to a child in a fire truck, despite the baby being 1 month early and in conjunction it totally ignores the fact that this happens in the US also. Just google new york baby and cab.

    You claim "economic prowess" and yet you fail to understand that spending money on a birthing facility in a rural area of France that caters to less than 300 births a year (less than one a day), is financially "sound" idea since only 30 miles away there is similar facility.

    You also ignore the cost benefit issues on a number of things. Instead you are promoting the idea that spending more is somehow better, to which I have countered time and time again with statistics that show that despite the 20 to 40% more spending by the US, life expectancy is not higher, infant mortality is not lower, coverage is not universal and so on. In fact in many cases it is worse off. And what do you do then.. blame Mexicans and immigrants.

    And of course you ignore the articles (new articles) I have provided showing hospital closings and loss of hospital beds over the last decade, not to mention closing of emergency rooms.

    So what is more important, 2 enclaves having an MRI machine each or a major city in the US loosing a hospital or 2 plus an emergency room or 2?

    Now instead you come with the claim without proof, that the US can "handle" less hospital beds because you some how are fixing people up faster and have a faster turn around.. again without any proof.. and that is sad because if you had bothered to look for proof you would have found it some what. Plus it goes against your other claim that the US is investing in hospital facilities for the future..
    Hospitals close and others open and expand, they are businesses that's what happens and you can't grasp the concept.

    Instead you want me to go ghost chasing proving more hospitals are opening.
    No thanks, the original article tells me that UHC isn't a sustainable government program.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    You have shown nothing but the fact you have more MRI machines than anyone else.. wupti do! Oh yea lets not forget the cancer thing.. kudos on that....you are marginally ahead there.. And yet the rest of the world leads the US in a majority of statistics including how long people live and of course cost, which when it comes down to things are the 2 most important statistics around in any situation, especially cost.. which you again ignore.

    Face it, you were linked an article by a friend and ate it hook line and sink without checking the article. When you then are called on the factual issues in the article, you provide another faulty report that is 10 years old and when that is debunked, then you turn wild theoretical with no factual proof ideas on why things are like they are.. it is a classic .. **** I got caught, now I must save face by blurring the issue, attacking the one that outed me and in the end stick to my opinions even though they have been disproved over and over again.

    thanks for the debate.
    Actually when you take out homicides and accidents the U.S. is at the top for life expectancy, but that isn't important to you, it doesn't fit your grand world view.

    No friend gave it to me, I do my own research. You didn't debunk anything.
    You just pretended to and there is no blurring, I'm doing just fine thanks.

    Reviewing the situation, you haven't dis proven anything except one statistic, but only because the info was old, instead you dance around the issue making claims like "pathetic" and "racist" because you can't handle truths or opinions that you don't like.

    So you label, anything that doesn't conform to you idea of correct, right wing.
    It's a frail attempt to marginalize debate and deter discussion away from the issue and towards the person having to defend themselves from your unfounded attacks, because you got nothing.

    Nice try though, See yea
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX] View Post
    Oh really? Everyone already knows the terrible effects of being obese? I don't know where you live, but here in Arkansas not everybody knows how bad being obese is.
    Then that's their own damned fault. The dangers of obesity have been perpetuated by the government, mass media, and medical community for decades now.

    Just because some nitwits in Arkansas don't understand the danger inherent to saddling one's body with pounds of extraneous fat doesn't mean we have some kind of preventative health care crisis in America. Here's an idea...why don't YOU do something about it instead of asking the rest of us to fix what YOU perceive to be a problem. Take it upon yourself to educate these husky ignoramuses, it's not my concern.

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    France Fights Universal Care's High Cost
    Obviously France is just a paid lobbyist of the greedy insurance industry.

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