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Thread: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

  1. #31
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And what is the problem with those statements? Why pick those statements out? Why not the statements on that the system is way cheaper? or the statement that everyone is covered? That doctors costs are a fraction of what they are in the US? Or maybe expand on the subject and look at hospital beds per captia? Doctors per capita? Why focus on those 2 quotes, and without any comparison to the US?

    And yes I am revising my opinion slightly after rereading it. It is an okay article, although it lacks a comparison to the US system which means it can easily (as we have seen) be seen in a very biased negative light. So it is not totally bs... my comment was a knee jerk reaction on the OP and what he posted totally out of context as my further comments will show.
    It's completely in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The very fact that the OP has to use the "shocking" view that a baby was born in a fire truck.. hello, babies are born in fire trucks, cabs, police cars and what not. The OP seems to attempt to use it as some sort of negative against the French system, but how about the US system? Could a baby be born in a bathroom, cab, police car.. or shock.. AT HOME!!!! because the ambulance was slow in getting there, or the baby just did not want to stay in? It is also hilarious how the OP used this case as a negative (and the article also uses it as a negative.. which is total bias when not compared to the US or other nations), when you look at the actual article. First off the baby was 1 month early.. well that changes things. Secondly, a 30 mile trip to a hospital from a rural area... give me a freaking break. The woman went into labour a month before she should and lived 30 miles.. shock horror.. from the nearest hospital in a rural part of France.. Well hot dang.. My parents lived 20 miles from the hospital in Denmark in a rural area ... and I still managed to be born at a hospital.. then again I was not a month early!

    And are you telling me that every single US town regardless of population has a hospital that can deliver babies or that every single woman in the US is within under 30 miles to the nearest hospital where they can give birth?..... So mother to be Jo on the farm, 30+ miles plus from the nearest town let alone hospital, has a special collapsible birthing hospital, with doctors and nurses in the back garden?
    If you read the article of even the blurb I posted you'll see that the hospital was closed because of cost cutting.

    Had this been a private hospital that wouldn't be necessarily true.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And so what if the French are going to the Fee-for-service system at the state hospitals? Good for them!, efficiency is a good thing if done right. So you are some how "pissed" over they are going over to a theoretical more efficient system, in a UHC system that is far cheaper than the US system.. potentially making it even more cheaper? Or is it some sort of attempt to say... look they are going over to the US system that is costing you guys a bundle? Just because they are gonna use the same "fee for service" system, does not mean they are going to screw it up as bad as the US has. Efficiency in a system is always welcome I would have thought.. guess we can drop those computerised systems here in Europe.. I heard you all are finally getting them too over there, so best to drop them.. they dont seem to work since they cut the administrative costs of the system...
    UHC and government health care systems hide their administrative costs.
    So they are not cheaper in that respect although it is harder to quantify.

    I'm glad it costs a lot considering we are going to need all that extra capacity to handle the retiring baby boomers. I hope any government program fails and fails hard because in about 10 years or so, we are going to have all the medical capacity we need and you guys are going to be struggling handling your aging populations.

    Costs are rising because an increase in demand exists and those profits are turned into building extra facilities and hiring more doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Like it or not the title of the thread and the article is miss leading to say the least and the article is being used by the usual suspects as a negative, when in fact it is far from it. Yes France is fighting the UHC high cost.. but it is still FAR cheaper than the US non UHC system!
    Cheaper is not better.

    I have a far higher chance of surviving cancer in the U.S. than anywhere in Europe.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #32
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Slainte View Post
    I didn't mean to "ignore" it, I agree!

    I think there is a lot of evidence that Mediterranean countries live healthier lifestyles than other developed countries. For one they drink wine instead of beer!
    Ok, I'm sorry about that. I just confused you with the hyper-partisan UHC supporters that won't concede a single point and just ignore everything they don't like. I haven't really found anyone like that here, but believe me they're out there.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Costs are rising because an increase in demand exists and those profits are turned into building extra facilities and hiring more doctors.
    I'll open you up for some more criticisms of government intervention into the health care system. What do you think of the AMA?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #34
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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I'll open you up for some more criticisms of government intervention into the health care system. What do you think of the AMA?
    It acts as a guild or pseudo union and is a protectionist entity designed to inflate the wages doctors receive by restricting the supply of doctors.

    I dislike them greatly.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    ^^It's very tough to compare because in general we live unhealthier lifestyles. Also, we do not record our statistics the same way.

    You have to disregard income when comparing. Just look at the cost in plain dollars. Once you do that, you'll have a general idea, but it's tough to say how much of the rest of the difference in cost is due to our lifestyles and the way we record statistics.
    We live a less healthy lifestyle because most people only go to the doctor for cure and not prevention. What % of Americans go to the dentist before they think they have a cavity?

    Also, you can't compare it in "plain dollars." Bring me to the poorest country in the world. I might earn $7/hour and be wealthy there, but in the US? I'm on the streets begging for money. Not to mention the finicky exchange rates.

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Cheaper is not better.

    I have a far higher chance of surviving cancer in the U.S. than anywhere in Europe.
    How do you explain this?

    The highest survival rates were found in the U.S. for breast and prostate cancer, in Japan for colon and rectal cancers in men, and in France for colon and rectal cancers in women, Coleman's team reports.

    In Canada and Australia, survival was also high for most cancers.
    Via http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/200...ary-by-country

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Considering the source... most likely total bs.
    Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    You know the article does say the following:
    French taxpayers fund a state health insurer, Assurance Maladie, proportionally to their income, and patients get treatment even if they can't pay for it. France spends 11% of national output on health services, compared with 17% in the U.S., and routinely outranks the U.S. in infant mortality and some other health measures.
    So you whole argument is that Assurance Malade is basically just not being funded properly...ok, this is France after all, and unless the author understands French politics this is no issue.

    So we have a system that does NOT cover everyone, we pay 17% of GDP, 14,000 lose their coverage each day, premiums and out of pocket costs rise each year faster than inflation (22% rise for me this year), Medicare insolvent in just a few years, more business each year cut or no longer offer insurance, people denied for pre-exisitng conditions, 18-22,000 die each year for lack of coverage, and more people going into debt from healthcare costs...etc..etc..

    Yep, we should ALL just stick our heads in the sand and do nothing.

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX] View Post
    We live a less healthy lifestyle because most people only go to the doctor for cure and not prevention. What % of Americans go to the dentist before they think they have a cavity?
    So it has nothing to do with the fact that we're more obese in general and eat a ton of terrible foods? No way, we're not a country known for that.

    Also, you can't compare it in "plain dollars." Bring me to the poorest country in the world. I might earn $7/hour and be wealthy there, but in the US? I'm on the streets begging for money. Not to mention the finicky exchange rates.
    You might consider yourself wealthy over there making $7/hour, but you're still not wealthy in American standards.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So it has nothing to do with the fact that we're more obese in general and eat a ton of terrible foods? No way, we're not a country known for that.
    You know, the prevention of being obese is still prevention right?


    You might consider yourself wealthy over there making $7/hour, but you're still not wealthy in American standards.
    What's your point? If you live in that country, you live by their standards not ours. When people say you have to measure healthcare standards (or whatever was talked about on this thread) in only plain dollars, you're ignoring the fact that a dollar here is different than a dollar in a poorer country.

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