Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

Laila said:

:rofl

*Tuts*
Drugs and Abortion. You are so damned

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Oh please. Almost 1 in 4 pregnancies self-abort. God's the biggest abortionist there ever was.

All UHC nations cover abortion with public funds. This is not new or shocking.

Ikari said:

Well the gun question in general. You support your countrymen's right to open carry fully automatic weapons?

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I support guns being legalised.

I don't support automatic weapons being allowed yet purely because the British do not have the right mentality or culture for such weapons after such a long period without it.
Maybe after 50 years when a generation or two have grown up with it and adapted to it, sure and perhaps if we raise a generation who respect weapons like those. If this generation is anything to go by with the knives and happy slapping, i wouldn't trust a spoon in their hands

Laila said:

I support guns being legalised.

I don't support automatic weapons being allowed yet purely because the British do not have the right mentality or culture for such weapons after such a long period without it.
Maybe after 50 years when a generation or two have grown up with it and adapted to it, sure and perhaps if we raise a generation who respect weapons like those. If this generation is anything to go by with the knives and happy slapping, i wouldn't trust a spoon in their hands

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And that's fair enough. The point is that pro-life and pro-choice are propaganda terms. Because on the whole pro-life doesn't support all life (through support of aggressive, occupational war and the death penalty) and pro-choice doesn't support all choice.

Sammyo said:

You didn't inform me of any shortcomings. Look again.

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You think abortions are swell, so swell that I should be forced to pay for them despite my moral objection to the practice. That seems like a shortcoming to me.

Why make assumptions at all? My view is logical, but i have no need to explain it to you and i certainly don't have the desire.

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Of course you don't NEED to do anything. If you wish to make assertions sans logic then blather away.

With what? The sound of your gasping at my opinion?

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By pointing out the ethical quandary posed by forcing others to subsidize a practice they consider to be immoral and detestable.

I'm fine with it being your opinion...

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Well duh, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't argue against it.

...and i think you should try your best to make it into law. That's what this country is about.

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So, you would offer up no objections whatsoever to mandatory prayer in schools? Just take the ol' doormat approach?

Well, your approval is the furthest thing from my mind, actually. You read what i say or not, and respond how you please. That's what internet forums are all about.

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Didn't I JUST tell you that my approval of your opinion is immaterial to the nature of our discussion? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

ROAR!!! :2rofll::2rofll::2rofll::2rofll:

You're the one who was using that as your defense!!!! You were saying, you can't take me seriously, because i was exaggerating. You even gave me another example that was even more hyperbolic so that i wouldn't misunderstand!! LOL!!!!! Don't stop now, Ethereal, you're seriously cracking me up!!!

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I'm glad you find me funny. It's always nice to know I'm making somebody happy.

Ikari said:

And that's fair enough. The point is that pro-life and pro-choice are propaganda terms. Because on the whole pro-life doesn't support all life (through support of aggressive, occupational war and the death penalty) and pro-choice doesn't support all choice.

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Point taken then.
I thought you were actually seriously asking the question

Laila said:

Point taken then.
I thought you were actually seriously asking the question

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I personally take gun rights very seriously. I think they are amongst the most important we have and that we need to understand the duty and responsibility we have as freemen in controlling our government and protecting our liberty. But that's another thread all together. As it relates here, I just want to demonstrate that "pro-choice" isn't pro-choice since there are choices people will be against. It's all propaganda. pro-abortion and anti-abortion are the proper terms for this debate.

Orius said:

All UHC nations cover abortion with public funds. This is not new or shocking.

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Sounds like another good argument against UHC.

Sammyo said:

Well, it's true. Pro-lifers want to take away the woman's choice in abortion. Don't they?

On the issue of abortion, don't most pro-lifers want the woman not to have a choice of an abortion? Of course they do. Don't act like most pro-lifers are out there just expressing an opinion. They, by in large, want to take away the choice of abortion. Right?

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Since the argument tends to be that pro-life people are against reproductive rights, the term anti-choice would imply that we are anti-all reproductive rights, which is a lie.

Coronado said:

Since the argument tends to be that pro-life people are against reproductive rights, the term anti-choice would imply that we are anti-all reproductive rights, which is a lie.

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The argument also tends to be Pro choice people are somehow for death, which is a lie seeing we support choice.

This can go both way, i just say we take Ikari's terms

Pro-choice and pro-life are accurate enough monikers.

The context, being assumed, is why they make sense.

Ethereal said:

You think abortions are swell, so swell that I should be forced to pay for them despite my moral objection to the practice. That seems like a shortcoming to me.

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It's not. That you think a certain aspect is a shortcoming is of no surprise, though. Chances are that you are in favor of some political agenda that i find abhorrent, but i wouldn't call it a "shortcoming". It's just something that you favor that i disagree with. I support abortions being paid for with tax dollars, and you can disagree with me, but just because i have that opinion that you don't agree with doesn't make it a shortcoming.

Newsflash to Ethereal: Your disagreement with an opinion is not a "shortcoming" of that opinion.

Ethereal said:

Of course you don't NEED to do anything. If you wish to make assertions sans logic then blather away.

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Lots of people on this thread have merely shared their opinion and not provided logic. You certainly haven't provided any logic that i'm aware of. Hell, you act like the fact that you disagree with me is a "shortcoming". That's faulty logic if i've ever heard it. Perhaps you should take a page from my book and not act like you're presenting logic when you're just presenting your biased opinion.

Ethereal said:

By pointing out the ethical quandary posed by forcing others to subsidize a practice they consider to be immoral and detestable.

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Current taxation does this every day. It's a fact of life.

Ethereal said:

Well duh, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't argue against it.

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Um, sure. Look, this board is allowing us both to post. Let's not pretend that somehow what people should and shouldn't say, according to your opinion is somehow relevant.

Ethereal said:

So, you would offer up no objections whatsoever to mandatory prayer in schools? Just take the ol' doormat approach?

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It depends on the wording of the law. I imagine that i'd be vocal in some way just like you'd be vocal in some way on abortion paid for with tax dollars. I think you should have the right to be vocal about abortion paid for with tax dollars and that i should have the right to be vocal about whatever i please. That's what make this country so great. What about this process do you not like?

Ethereal said:

Didn't I JUST tell you that my approval of your opinion is immaterial to the nature of our discussion? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

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Well you were the one acting like your opinion was some almighty pronouncement or something. I never did. If you want to take opinions so seriously than that's your business. I was just cluing you in to the reality that i don't.

Ethereal said:

Pro-choice and pro-life are accurate enough monikers.

The context, being assumed, is why they make sense.

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I don't really care, but when pro-lifers start talking about pro-choicers being pro-abortion, then i feel the need to point out that pro-lifers are mostly anti-choicers (when it comes to women).

Coronado said:

Sounds like another good argument against UHC.

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Why?

UHC paying for abortions means that all abortion clinics become subject to government inspection, which means we can make sure that procedures are being performed safely and humanely. At private clinics things can happen more behind closed doors.

Ethereal said:

Pro-choice and pro-life are accurate enough monikers.

The context, being assumed, is why they make sense.

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A better term for pro-life is anti-choice. I tend to use that one much more.

And pro-choice is not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice but I don't like abortion. I consider it a last resort and a messy one.

Orius said:

Why?

UHC paying for abortions means that all abortion clinics become subject to government inspection, which means we can make sure that procedures are being performed safely and humanely. At private clinics things can happen more behind closed doors.

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US is very different.
Abortion clinics and doctors are inspected like **** because it is Government run.

One wrong move, jail/stripping of medicial practice or fine.

That is probably why you'd only get people like Tiller in US and no where else.
Late term Abortion = Jail. Simple as that

Orius said:

Why?

UHC paying for abortions means that all abortion clinics become subject to government inspection, which means we can make sure that procedures are being performed safely and humanely. At private clinics things can happen more behind closed doors.

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Private clinics are still subject to various regulations even under a private insurance regime.

Orius said:

A better term for pro-life is anti-choice. I tend to use that one much more.

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A better term for pro-choice is pro-abortion. I tend to use that one much more.

And pro-choice is not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice but I don't like abortion.

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You're every bits as much pro-abortion as I am pro-gun, as a gun is the last resort, and a messy one.

Goobieman said:

You're every bits as much pro-abortion as I am pro-gun, as a gun is the last resort, and a messy one.

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Yep. I'm pro-abortion in that regard.

And, aren't you "anti-choice" too, when it comes down to it? Don't you want to see a woman's choice to have an abortion taken away? Do you see?

Goobieman said:

A better term for pro-choice is pro-abortion. I tend to use that one much more.


You're every bits as much pro-abortion as I am pro-gun, as a gun is the last resort, and a messy one.

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I was wondering when you'd show up.

If anyone can take black and make it white, it's you.

Welcome to the thread. :2wave:

Orius said:

I was wondering when you'd show up.
If anyone can take black and make it white, it's you.
Welcome to the thread. :2wave:

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Been here for a while. :mrgreen:
But, my point stands.

Laila said:

US is very different.
Abortion clinics and doctors are inspected like **** because it is Government run.

One wrong move, jail/stripping of medicial practice or fine.

That is probably why you'd only get people like Tiller in US and no where else.
Late term Abortion = Jail. Simple as that

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It's that way in Canada too, except the bill is on public funds so the government has even more right to make sure things are running smoothly.

UHC is just that, universal. Abortion, regardless of its controversial nature, is still a medical procedure that requires staff and equipment to be paid for. You can't have your cake and eat it too. UHC means medicine, period, is covered. It's this that people aren't understanding.

Orius said:

It's that way in Canada too, except the bill is on public funds so the government has even more right to make sure things are running smoothly.

UHC is just that, universal. Abortion, regardless of its controversial nature, is still a medical procedure that requires staff and equipment to be paid for. You can't have your cake and eat it too. UHC means medicine, period, is covered. It's this that people aren't understanding.

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So what sort of elective surgery does this cover? Plastic surgery? If so, Hollywood is going to bankrupt us. Where are we drawing the line, are we drawing a line?

Orius said:

It's that way in Canada too, except the bill is on public funds so the government has even more right to make sure things are running smoothly.

UHC is just that, universal. Abortion, regardless of its controversial nature, is still a medical procedure that requires staff and equipment to be paid for. You can't have your cake and eat it too. UHC means medicine, period, is covered. It's this that people aren't understanding.

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US also allows abortion longer than some liberal European countries who do allow Abortion to be done on taxpayer money.

Exactly.
I think why it is so different is because it is still a emotive issue in US, which probably links into the fact US is undeniably very religious for a western country.
Abortion has been a dead issue in many countries. Accept it and try to reduce it by not criminalizing it.

Ikari said:

So what sort of elective surgery does this cover? Plastic surgery? If so, Hollywood is going to bankrupt us. Where are we drawing the line, are we drawing a line?

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That's a great point Ikari... plastic surgery is usually covered in instances of accidents, and you usually have to apply for it specially to the government. For example, burn victims with severe burns, or children who have been in car accidents, can sometimes be eligible. I'm not sure of the statistics though.

In any case... abortion is covered under UHC as part of most nations' birth control regimes. It's also the reason why birth control pills tend to be cheaper in Western nations, since they receive some subsidy from the government.