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Thread: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

  1. #271
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    How sentient are a few dozen skin cells from your arm? What happens when you scratch your arm and they fly off into oblivion? Where is their right to life?

    You can make the same ridiculous argument for just about anything.

    This is dumb.


    I asked you a question.


    prove a 24 week fetus is less "sentient" than a 1 month old. Scientifically.



    The question of suffering matters a lot. It's not enough to simply demand the right to life, you must also define why, if it is indeed murder, it is unacceptable to terminate a pregnancy. One such way to measure it is the amount of suffering. Since a one month old fetus cannot even perceive pain since it lacks any form of nervous system, we can say that abortion at that stage is of no consequence to the fetus itself who lacks pertinent awareness of what is happening.

    Furthermore, this tiny blob of cells doesn't even resemble a person as we know it. You would not want to cuddle with this thing that looks more like a fish, so attributing personhood to it is irrelevant.

    If suffering is removed from the equation, then all we are left with is that we should preserve life just because it's life. Well, we see how humans treat life all the time. We kill it, eat it, turn it into furniture or housing, hunt it, etc. Not to mention we engage in wars to kill other humans. So life in of itself has an inconsistent value in our society.

    Barbarism. We are not "other animals" and you viewing human life = to that of a cow. then I don't think we have much to discuss.
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    This is dumb.


    I asked you a question.


    prove a 24 week fetus is less "sentient" than a 1 month old. Scientifically.
    I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about a one month old BABY, but a one month old FETUS, in the first trimester. A 24 week old fetus is much more developed than a four week old one. It has a nervous system and pertinent awareness of its surroundings. It's definitely aware of pain stimulus, which is why abortions at this stage are mostly illegal around the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Barbarism. We are not "other animals" and you viewing human life = to that of a cow. then I don't think we have much to discuss.
    That was not the point I was trying to make. My point is that we treat life with disregard whenever it suits us, including human life. There is no reason why a first trimester fetus should deserve special treatment, especially for being something that is so woefully undeveloped and less aware of its existence than a even a cow.

    And it certainly is not a reason to override the rights of a living, fully developed woman.

  3. #273
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about a one month old BABY, but a one month old FETUS, in the first trimester. A 24 week old fetus is much more developed than a four week old one. It has a nervous system and pertinent awareness of its surroundings. It's definitely aware of pain stimulus, which is why abortions at this stage are mostly illegal around the world.

    So you are against abortion at 18 weeks?

    Fetal Nervous System - 18 Weeks Pregnant -- Fetal Development This Week -- WhatToExpect.com

    Legal in most countries...


    or hell... 6 weeks

    Overview: Fetal Development | Pregnancy.org


    Or does the system have to be in full development before its too late to kill the human?




    That was not the point I was trying to make. My point is that we treat life with disregard whenever it suits us, including human life. There is no reason why a first trimester fetus should deserve special treatment, especially for being something that is so woefully undeveloped and less aware of its existence than a even a cow.

    barbaric. This thinking is whats wrong with us as a society... Simply because "others" are doing things contra to life, does not making killing your inside babies justified.





    And it certainly is not a reason to override the rights of a living, fully developed woman.

    I disagree. The human life inside her, would probably to in a few years.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #274
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    I won't. And, I shouldn't be forced to pay for other people to do it, either! The "pro-choicers" in this thread are really showing their true colors. We'll all be forced to fund others' abortions. Where is the choice?
    I do support public funding to Abortion.
    But in US where there is ... underlining issues and emotive responses from both sides. I do not see how it is possible.

    But by the same token if my Govt. ever gave pro lifers a choice on whether they wished to fund abortion or not in UK, I'd expect to be given the same choice on the Army and war.


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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So you are against abortion at 18 weeks?
    I'm in favor of keeping abortion legal pre 18 weeks.

    There is no concrete evidence that a fetus feels pain within that time. You cannot prove it because there is insufficient research. I'll save you the time of looking for a source. I studied this in medical school and it's ongoing. Scientific debate continue.

    If the scientists don't know, then you can't possibly know for sure, and since you can't know for sure, you have no justification to illegalize abortion.

    Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    barbaric. This thinking is whats wrong with us as a society... Simply because "others" are doing things contra to life, does not making killing your inside babies justified.
    It's not wrong to demand empirical evidence to justify our emotional reactions to things we dislike, especially for sweeping changes in law. Women used to be burned for being witches because they had red hair. Red hair was "evidence". Then we wisened up.

    You can't assume a fetus feels pain, and pain is a strong incentive for restrictions on abortion. Since we don't know what fetal perception is for sure, there is no way I can support removing a woman's right to choose, and I certainly won't support it based on people's emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I disagree. The human life inside her, would probably to in a few years.
    This isn't a grammatically correct sentence, so I don't know what it means.

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm in favor of keeping abortion legal pre 18 weeks.

    There is no concrete evidence that a fetus feels pain within that time. You cannot prove it because there is insufficient research. I'll save you the time of looking for a source. I studied this in medical school and it's ongoing. Scientific debate continue.

    If the scientists don't know, then you can't possibly know for sure, and since you can't know for sure, you have no justification to illegalize abortion.

    Period.

    You air on the side of death, I on the side of life. You say "dunno, kill it", that to me is barbarism.




    It's not wrong to demand empirical evidence to justify our emotional reactions to things we dislike, especially for sweeping changes in law. Women used to be burned for being witches because they had red hair. Red hair was "evidence". Then we wisened up.

    Yes and someday we will wise up to the slaughter of the unborn, just as we wised up to slavery.



    You can't assume a fetus feels pain, and pain is a strong incentive for restrictions on abortion. Since we don't know what fetal perception is for sure, there is no way I can support removing a woman's right to choose, and I certainly won't support it based on people's emotions.

    So its cool if the fetus does not "feel pain".... as if that does not snuff out a life?




    This isn't a grammatically correct sentence, so I don't know what it means.

    niether do I... I think I was going for asking the unaborted how they feel at 12 years old or something.....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    You air on the side of death, I on the side of life. You say "dunno, kill it", that to me is barbarism.
    I'm not actually pro-abortion, so I won't entertain your hysteria. I'm defending the right to choose and defending rationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Yes and someday we will wise up to the slaughter of the unborn, just as we wised up to slavery.
    We already have wisened up... it's practical birth control policy to allow women to terminate pregnancies, the only issue to be decided is up until what point they can do so. All of human history shows elective abortion to be the norm, even from the stance of the Church. It was only made illegal, initially, to challenge the women's suffrage movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So its cool if the fetus does not "feel pain".... as if that does not snuff out a life?
    Instead of re-typing it... I invite you to read it again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius
    The question of suffering matters a lot. It's not enough to simply demand the right to life, you must also define why, if it is indeed murder, it is unacceptable to terminate a pregnancy. One such way to measure it is the amount of suffering. Since a one month old fetus cannot even perceive pain since it lacks any form of nervous system, we can say that abortion at that stage is of no consequence to the fetus itself who lacks pertinent awareness of what is happening.
    Preserving life for life's sake is not enough to override the rights of a woman.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    niether do I... I think I was going for asking the unaborted how they feel at 12 years old or something.....
    Um... okay...

  8. #278
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm not actually pro-abortion, so I won't entertain your hysteria. I'm defending the right to choose and defending rationality.

    What if I chose to kill a one month old? You are pro-abortion.




    We already have wisened up... it's practical birth control policy to allow women to terminate pregnancies, the only issue to be decided is up until what point they can do so. All of human history shows elective abortion to be the norm, even from the stance of the Church. It was only made illegal, initially, to challenge the women's suffrage movement.

    This is pure barbaric savagry. and you are wrong:


    I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

    NOVA | Doctors' Diaries | The Hippocratic Oath: Classical Version | PBS





    Preserving life for life's sake is not enough to override the rights of a woman.
    I disagree. a right is not something that inteferes with the right of another, namely the unborn.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    What if I chose to kill a one month old? You are pro-abortion.
    I actually find abortion kind of gross... but I will defend another's right to choose what is best for them.

    Label me all you want. You've already proven how overly emotional you are in this debate, so your ad homs don't really matter to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    This is pure barbaric savagry. and you are wrong:


    I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

    NOVA | Doctors' Diaries | The Hippocratic Oath: Classical Version | PBS
    Read the modern one. That's not in there, because modern nations legalized abortion a long time ago. Also... you assume wrongly that all medical schools still use this form of oath. They don't. Mine didn't.

    The classical oath also gave preferential treatment to the children of doctors, giving them almost exclusive access to medical school.

    People often cite the hippocratic oath in their protest of capital punishment. It's clearly ethical to the U.S. that doctors be made part of lethal injection procedures, etc.

    This is a debate in of itself though, one I actually had in medical school. The old oath was cited and the class was divided into two, debating its various points. It's an interesting discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I disagree. a right is not something that inteferes with the right of another, namely the unborn.
    Given that 1/4 of fetuses self-terminate within the first trimester, we should also hold funerals for these "people" who died. Let's collect their goo from the woman's panty liner, and buy a mini-casket for it.

    The first trimester is inconsequential in the grand scheme. If you terminate the pregnancy yourself, or it self-terminates, it is a blip in biology.

    I'm not in favor of reducing the rights of a woman for a ball of cells the size of a watermelon seed, nonetheless people will continue to irrationally argue that this fish-like thing is a person and deserves the full protection of the law.

    My main debate with you here Rev, is not to say you are wrong per se, but to cast reasonable doubt. There are enough counter arguments to all of your points, enough perspectives, to make this matter pro-choice.

    The pro-life perspective does not deserve concrete legalization because it is a philosophical perspective and nothing more.

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    and you accused ME of being over emotional? Please... I'll be back later doc.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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