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Thread: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

  1. #201
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    With UHC, you don't really. All countries with a progressive birth control policy that have UHC cover abortion for their people. It's just common sense. I realize you can't see this because we come from two different cultures, but it's more unethical to offer selective procedures based on populist morality. You either have UHC or you don't. The "universal" part is important.

    I do reiterate though that the U.S. is simply not ready for UHC. They can't make the initial leap of wanting to pay for the collective health of their society, so why should I expect them to understand why UHC being pro-choice makes sense?

    Your country just isn't ready. There are too many debates happening and UHC intersects a lot of them. You can't have UHC until the chatter dies down.
    I may not want UHC, it depends on what form it takes. But there's no reason that we have to do what other countries do. The "progressive" countries may allow for abortion through UHC, but we don't have to be like them. Your condescending tone aside, I don't want to be like them. I think Europe and the rest of the West has lost a lot of resolve, and I don't want to go down that same path. We can make UHC if we want it, but we don't need to do so by your rules. There are many things to debate and work out as to whether or not we can make a go at this UHC, but just because the "progressive" countries do something doesn't mean we have to. "Progressive" countries have stripped their people's ability to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. I wouldn't encourage the US to go the same direction. So you can take that smug attitude of yours and shove it. I don't care what you've done, or how much better you think yourself to be. I want to do what's best for the US, for my freedom and liberty which includes control over the government. And if we're going to have some form of UHC system, I'm going to fight funding elective medical procedures.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Our countries legalized abortion and funded it across the board under pro-choice policy. They looked at it and said, "If you want one, we will help. If you don't want one, don't get one." But in our countries, the evangelists and religious right are given less of a voice in secular politics. They have much more power in the U.S.

    I still assert that if you don't like abortion, then don't get one... but it's not enough for the opposition. For them, it's: "Oh, but we want to control everyone and make sure people aren't being murdered!"
    That is the same premis those who do not support Abortion over here work under.
    Not this stupid idea of trying to restrict everyone else, just not going to get it themselves or their wife/daughter etc. and fair enough.

    What helped UK in legalizing it, was the way it occured.
    Not like US where a women went to SC for it.
    The first legislation was designed to protect the doctors performing it not the women under strict rules. Still in UK, If i wanted a Abortion. I'd need the notice of two difference doctors


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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I may not want UHC, it depends on what form it takes. But there's no reason that we have to do what other countries do. The "progressive" countries may allow for abortion through UHC, but we don't have to be like them. Your condescending tone aside, I don't want to be like them. I think Europe and the rest of the West has lost a lot of resolve, and I don't want to go down that same path. We can make UHC if we want it, but we don't need to do so by your rules. There are many things to debate and work out as to whether or not we can make a go at this UHC, but just because the "progressive" countries do something doesn't mean we have to. "Progressive" countries have stripped their people's ability to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. I wouldn't encourage the US to go the same direction. So you can take that smug attitude of yours and shove it. I don't care what you've done, or how much better you think yourself to be. I want to do what's best for the US, for my freedom and liberty which includes control over the government. And if we're going to have some form of UHC system, I'm going to fight funding elective medical procedures.
    I'm not trying to be smug or superior, so there is no need to get defensive. Pro-choice policy naturally encompasses everyone. It encompasses those who don't support abortion because it is not forcing them to get one or even promoting it, and it supports those who want to get it. I don't see why this is such a divisive issue in the U.S. It wasn't even a divisive issue pre 1850 in your own country. Abortion isn't infringing on your right to live the life that you want, although I can understand why you would think that about UHC.

    As I've said in previous threads, the majority don't know why the pro-life movement even started in the U.S... and it has nothing to do with the sanctity of life, although, that is what it eventually transformed into.

    For you, if it's about controlling government, then you've already lost. The people of the U.S. have remarkably little say anymore as government powers expand, and it's mostly for the simple reason that you are all divided over hotbutton issues like this one. You will never unite and rise to the occasion.

    As for the rhetoric about my country and bearing arms... we have never had civil war. Our transition from a colonial territory to a sovereign nation has been relatively smooth, and there haven't been cases of mass uprise against the government in our short history. We don't have a violent history like the U.S... we never fought among ourselves to the degree you have. We have more common trust.

    Anyway, let's avoid the gun debate. The abortion one is far more interesting.

  4. #204
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm not trying to be smug or superior,
    Not doing a good job of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Pro-choice policy naturally encompasses everyone. It encompasses those who don't support abortion because it is not forcing them to get one or even promoting it, and it supports those who want to get it. I don't see why this is such a divisive issue in the U.S. It wasn't even a divisive issue pre 1850 in your own country. Abortion isn't infringing on your right to live the life that you want, although I can understand why you would think that about UHC.
    I can't stop abortion, the SCOTUS has already ruled on it, it can't be changed. I'm saying, if you want elective medical procedures pay for it yourself. I'm not going to fund it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I can't stop abortion, the SCOTUS has already ruled on it, it can't be changed. I'm saying, if you want elective medical procedures pay for it yourself. I'm not going to fund it.
    This is a perfectly reasonable stance, one that should be supported by those who support "choice".

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    My disagreement with your opinion was not offered absent any reasoning. The coercive nature of government-funded abortions is a valid observation and a logical premise from which to argue.
    You're not for it, and i am. That you keep describing the situation as it is is not a rebuttal. We both know what the situation is and your disagreement with it in relationship to my agreement with it is NOT a logical argument. Yes, the gov't is spending your money for a procedure you don't think is ethical. Yes, i'm for it and you're against it. What now?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    That's fine, but don't be surprised when I inform you that your opinion - although very neat! - doesn't make any sense.
    Doesn't make sense according to whom? Your ideology and values? I should hope it doesn't, as that'd mean you were inconsistent. It sure makes sense to me, according to my ideology and values, and you'll be hard pressed to show otherwise, but i would welcome the attempt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Opinions can also be correct or incorrect. Your's happens to be incorrect.
    Prove that opinions can be correct or incorrect first. Then prove that my opinion on this is incorrect. This should be fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right, you know.
    Nope, but three lefts do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Sammyo's children, whilst in attendance at any public school, shall be made to pray to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose blood was shed so that we may have everlasting life.

    So, what do you think of my law?
    I think that it's silly and unconstitutional. I'd fight against it. Wow, what a shocker. So what? You're going to voice your opinions and "fight" against the laws with which you don't agree. I'm going to voice my opinions and "fight" against the laws with which i don't agree. This the american way. That your law is unconstitutional would help my fight, but that's irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    DING-DING-DING! We have a winner!
    Every post of mine in this thread has been a "winner". That you suddenly notice is of no concern to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So, suppose, in the course of your vocalizing, I simply told you to "stop whining". Would you consider that to be a logical refutation of your position?
    It would depend on what i had previously said to which that was your reply. Did i ever say that "stop whining" was a logical refutation of anyone's position? I think not. All i see from you is whining and more whining. Even now, as you attempt to obscure the issue in an avalanche of non-sequiturs instead of rational syllogisms, it's just more bitching and moaning. I still have yet to see one robust, logical presentation in favor of your position. With all your hemming and hawing, there's no meat amidst all the tendons and cartilage. Are we going to ever eat steak, Ethereal, or are we just going to talk about the color of the plates and the name brand of the knives?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    When are you going to stop beating your wife? See, I can ask loaded questions, too.
    Anybody can ask loaded questions. Who cares? All i see you doing is being obscure and rhetorical. Why not address the issue at hand? Are you so scarred of the actual issue that you feel the need to dodge with red herrings every other sentence? I explained to you the REALITY of how the process works. You don't have to answer my questions about that reality, but you can't deny it. Again, I think you should have the right to be vocal about abortion paid for with tax dollars and that i should have the right to be vocal about whatever i please and that's what make this country so great. You can say something about that or not. What do i care?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Nowhere have I advocated anything in opposition to free speech or the exercise thereof. I'm simply trying to contest the validity of your opinion, not its existence.
    Then get busy contesting it and quit pointing out such obvious points as could be picked up by any 4th grader that knows how to read the English language. You've yet to say anything at all, really. What's your point, that you can throw red herrings and non-sequiturs around all day long? Hell, people who can do that are all over the place. They hardly need to advertise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Hey, thanks for that. I love reality.
    To a fault, it appears. You just keep stating the facts over and over that everybody already knew from the get go. Let me know when you've got something to say that isn't already blatantly obvious to every single person who takes a 2-second cursory glance at the thread title.

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I still assert that if you don't like abortion, then don't get one... but it's not enough for the opposition. For them, it's: "Oh, but we want to control everyone and make sure people aren't being murdered!"
    I mean this with all due respect...but that is a very myopic and simplistic view of the abortion issue. I am prochoice, myself, but I also understand that there is a whole depth of issues to the bolded portion of your statement. And yeah, even being prochoice, I am totally down with seeing that people aren't being murdered. If you wanna call that controling others, then so be it. I'm a control freak. And I'm not sorry about it.

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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm not trying to be smug or superior, so there is no need to get defensive.
    Meh, the folks who disagree with you on this issue are going to claim it anyway. In all likelihood you ARE superior, but that's just my humble opinion.

  9. #209
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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This is a perfectly reasonable stance, one that should be supported by those who support "choice".
    I do.
    I have no issue with whether US gets UHC or not.

    I find the notion of making pro lifers pay for Abortion when they are against it outside of necessity wrong


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    Re: Gov't insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I mean this with all due respect...but that is a very myopic and simplistic view of the abortion issue. I am prochoice, myself, but I also understand that there is a whole depth of issues to the bolded portion of your statement. And yeah, even being prochoice, I am totally down with seeing that people aren't being murdered. If you wanna call that controling others, then so be it. I'm a control freak. And I'm not sorry about it.
    This is my problem... control. One group trying to control what another person does, based on their staunch beliefs. You are entitled to think it's murder, and so am I, but that is irrelevant to the broad sphere of other people's beliefs. Just because you might believe it is murder, doesn't mean it actually is. Even science cannot determine what this means, and they are the ones looking at the hard neurological factors of first semester abortion.

    I think it's arrogant and superior to belief what you think should override the views of all others. This is my view on abortion as a rule.

    As for the UHC part of it... I cannot deny that, from an American perspective, it would be forcing all people to pay with abortion for their taxes. As a Canadian, I think it is perfectly ethical... but if I were an American who was against abortion, I'd be pissed.

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