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SIN BINS FOR WORST FAMILIES (aka the end of liberty in Britain)

Harshaw said:
I'm being exactly as dramatic as it calls for. You're being far too complacent. You figure it's just "them" being oppressed, so it doesn't affect you.

Like I said, you might as well just round them up into camps.
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They already live in camps. Go visit your nearest government housing projects and you will see. Also, walk around one after dark, hell, do it in the daylight and chances are you will get mugged or shot. They are a haven for crime.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Your being too dramatic. When the people stop abusing the system they will no longer be monitored. It never said that the program was indefinite.
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Riiiiiiight. Cuz we all know government programs just fade away into the sunset when they're no longer needed.
 
Ikari said:
What about working Americans who lost their job and use government assistance till they can get a job again?



No, the government offered a program to assist with the very poor, and they have opted to use that program. The government is not running their lives or raising their children, merely providing some financial support for them to do so. As it is a legal program, it cannot come with the infringement of rights. That's treason and tyranny of the highest caliber.



How is it not? Fascist, big brother government is what you're calling for. Most everyone takes advantage of a taxpayer program usually.
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I already said it should be used for those that abuse the system, for to me they are nothing more than criminals.
 
tlmorg02 said:
No need, the police are there to ensure I do not break the laws on the highway. I am not free to drive without being stopped. The traffic police or highway patrol may stop me if they find it necessary. They may also search my vehicle if they have reasonable suspicion. Should we bar the police from doing these things as well?
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No. "Reasonable suspicion" and probable cause are out the window when you favor 24/7 surveillance simply because people are using a government service.

You're using a service you're not paying for. Therefore, you're on that state's dole. Therefore, it gets to monitor you as it chooses. Don't like it? Don't use the roads.
 
Harshaw said:
No. "Reasonable suspicion" and probable cause are out the window when you favor 24/7 surveillance simply because people are using a government service.

You're using a service you're not paying for. Therefore, you're on that state's dole. Therefore, it gets to monitor you as it chooses. Don't like it? Don't use the roads.
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As soon as I buy gas in that state, I am a tax payer.
 
tlmorg02 said:
All it takes is a vote to overturn them, right?
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Yeah.

The Bill of Rights apparently means nothing to you, what with all its guarantees of people being secure in their own homes, but you still think the government will honor a "vote."
 
tlmorg02 said:
As soon as I buy gas in that state, I am a tax payer.
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Then you'll be monitored to make sure that you DO buy gas. They'll set up the cameras at a checkpoint right on the border. Why, that makes the analogy even better.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Are there not already highway cameras?
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Doesn't matter. The analogue to having 24/7 cameras inside your home is to have one in your car.

So, why the sudden resistance? Got to make sure you don't fleece the taxpayers, don't they?
 
tlmorg02 said:
I already said it should be used for those that abuse the system, for to me they are nothing more than criminals.
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How do you find these people? How do you enforce this? Is there a review system somewhere, or once condemned is that it? Like the no fly list.?

To you they may be nothing more than criminals, but as they aren't actually breaking a law how can you justly endorse infringing upon their rights and liberties? You're just being bitter and allowing that to override reason and logic.
 
Ikari said:
How do you find these people? How do you enforce this? Is there a review system somewhere, or once condemned is that it? Like the no fly list.?

To you they may be nothing more than criminals, but as they aren't actually breaking a law how can you justly endorse infringing upon their rights and liberties? You're just being bitter and allowing that to override reason and logic.
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The article says for worse families. Thus, there must be a mechanism in place and a review board to determine who this is and when the monitoring should stop. I have advocated anything less?
 
I've heard advication for the unreasonable, uncalled for, tyrannical monitoring of people who take government money to aid in their current financial situation. I'm just trying to see where your boarders are at. Those won't be the government's boarders, they'll take it farther of course. I just wanted to find out how far down this road you wanted to tread. There are people on welfare, there are some on there for quite some time. True. Some are not ideal parents, true. But that's not all, and I want to know how we find those specific people, and identify them correctly and if they have recourse other than living on the street digging through trash for food (which isn't much an alternative) to get off these lists and horrible horrible government monitoring of its populace.
 
tlmorg02 said:
The article says for worse families. Thus, there must be a mechanism in place and a review board to determine who this is and when the monitoring should stop. I have advocated anything less?
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Here in the US, there IS a mechanism in place to determine when this should and shouldn't happen -- it's the called 4th Amendment.
 
Ikari said:
I've heard advication for the unreasonable, uncalled for, tyrannical monitoring of people who take government money to aid in their current financial situation. I'm just trying to see where your boarders are at. Those won't be the government's boarders, they'll take it farther of course. I just wanted to find out how far down this road you wanted to tread. There are people on welfare, there are some on there for quite some time. True. Some are not ideal parents, true. But that's not all, and I want to know how we find those specific people, and identify them correctly and if they have recourse other than living on the street digging through trash for food (which isn't much an alternative) to get off these lists and horrible horrible government monitoring of its populace.
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I equate lifetime Welfare recipients with felons. They do nothing more than rob the public. If people are found, in accordance with law, to be such abusers, than they deserve no more rights than the felons we incarcerate everyday.
 
tlmorg02 said:
I equate lifetime Welfare recipients with felons. They do nothing more than rob the public. If people are found, in accordance with law, to be such abusers, than they deserve no more rights than the felons we incarcerate everyday.
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Well, since it's not an actual felony, how do you justify the infringement of rights and liberties? An act of treason and tyranny the likes not seen here in quite some time. You may equate them to anything you want, but they're not actually any of it. I mean, I could say "I equate religion with child abuse", if I get enough people to agree with that can I then infringe upon people who practice life long religion and raise their children in religious manners? Can I?

You are in the wrong here, sorry but it's true. You are advocating acting against the rights and liberties of the individual without due process, without cause. Only based on prejudice, bias, and bitter ideals.
 
Harshaw said:
Daily Express | UK News :: Sin bins for worst families



You people in Britain who say you care about freedom had better get out there and protest this loudly, because if this sticks, it's over for you as a free country.

How blatantly, literally Orwellian does it have to get for you to react?
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I find it reprehensible that anyone would consider doing this, if these parents are so horrible they should either have their children taken or be arrested.

It's even crazier that anyone would support this, it doesn't matter if it isn't you because it just opens the door to them extending it to other groups.
 
tlmorg02 said:
So we get a warrant.
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No warrants without probable cause of a crime being committed. That's not what you advocate. You advocate wholesale monitoring, 24/7, simply because they took government money.

Again, why can't a state monitor the inside of your car simply for using its roads, under your construct?
 
Harshaw said:
No warrants without probable cause of a crime being committed. That's not what you advocate. You advocate wholesale monitoring, 24/7, simply because they took government money.

Again, why can't a state monitor the inside of your car simply for using its roads, under your construct?
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Fine, it breaks privacy laws. So then if these parents are bad parents, then the children should be taken away and the Welfare removed.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Fine, it breaks privacy laws. So then if these parents are bad parents, then the children should be taken away and the Welfare removed.
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:roll: No one's arguing that they shouldn't.

But you say if people take government money, then their rights are forfeit. That's indefensible.
 
Harshaw said:
Daily Express | UK News :: Sin bins for worst families



You people in Britain who say you care about freedom had better get out there and protest this loudly, because if this sticks, it's over for you as a free country.

How blatantly, literally Orwellian does it have to get for you to react?
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Well, if they were to implement this in the United States, I would be demanding 24/7 hour surveillance cameras in all government offices so that I can log into a web camera and make sure my tax payer dollars were not being wasted by state/government employees.

What is this program costing the tax payer to implement? How much does it actually save the tax payer?

Having to pay for the equipment, damage to the equipment, salaries for someone to monitor the device... I just don't see any realistic cost savings for this type of a program.
 
Harshaw said:
:roll: No one's arguing that they shouldn't.

But you say if people take government money, then their rights are forfeit. That's indefensible.
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That is not what I said. I said those that abuse the system.
 
tlmorg02 said:
That is not what I said. I said those that abuse the system.
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No.

tlmorg02 said:
If the governement pays your bills, then you have given-up your freedom, as you have proven that you cannot survive on your own. To allow such people to propogate more Welfare seekers and teen gangsters would be an exercise in stupidity.
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And then you went on from there.

Not that it really matters if you did limit it to "abuse the system," which I gather means staying on it for too long without trying to do anything else -- that's not a crime.

If you're starting to see the madness of the position you held throughout this thread, then that's good.
 
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