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SIN BINS FOR WORST FAMILIES (aka the end of liberty in Britain)

Catz Part Deux said:
This is why I'm not in favor of government handouts in any area. Anytime you accept a dole from the government, you are opening the door for the government to meddle in your personal life.

Don't want the meddling? Don't take the check.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for you. If you don't want the nanny interfering in your life, don't try to beg money out of nanny's pocket.
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I don't understand why it's such a difficult concept for YOU to understand how it's an 80-degree slippery slope.

The idea that the government merely writing you a check means you accept its control over your life is entirely baffling to someone who truly understands and truly loves liberty.

One more time -- if you subsidize someone and they abuse it, they should lose the subsidy, not get commisars to watch their every move.

You guys really have no idea what you're saying.
 
Harshaw said:
So . . .

Instead of the government existing to protect your liberties,
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No one has a right to mooch off tax payers. It would be different if this was a social security or medicare ir some other program where everyone pays into it with the expectation that one day they will get this money back in some form and even those cases there is still some conditions in order to get that money back.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Sure, there is a line. But why should the public allow worthless parents to collect money on children and stay at home on the tax payer dime, while they corrupt or damage these children, creating crime problems and more dependents on the system. There are two choices: 1) End Welfare and when people have kids but can't support themselves, the state must take the children into protective custody and find them foster homes.
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Ending welfare is fine with me, but you can still maintain a social safety net without giving up freedom.


2) The government monitors those on the system to ensure it is not abused. Take your pick, because one way or another, these people are freely giving-up their rights when they stretch their hands out to tax payers.
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No. They aren't. If they don't take the opportunity they're given, then they should lose it. But they aren't giving up their rights. If they think they are, then they're the exact opposite of everything this country -- everything personal LIBERTY -- is supposed to be about.

That you guys are fine with it is deeply, deeply disturbing.
 
Harshaw said:
So . . .

Instead of the government existing to protect your liberties, you'd turn it into a mafia-style loan shark who comes in and busts your kneecaps if you don't behave?

I'm truly, truly frightened by the responses in this thread. We're going to be living in Orwellian state within our lifetimes, and most of you don't even know you're OK with that.
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I don't believe the government has a role in funding people who don't work, EVER, aside from those who are completely physically and/or mentally incapable of doing so.

However, if we do so, having worked a great deal with welfare families, I see a need for attaching strings to the dollars.
 
Harshaw said:
Ending welfare is fine with me, but you can still maintain a social safety net without giving up freedom.




No. They aren't. If they don't take the opportunity they're given, then they should lose it. But they aren't giving up their rights. If they think they are, then they're the exact opposite of everything this country -- everything personal LIBERTY -- is supposed to be about.

That you guys are fine with it is deeply, deeply disturbing.
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Tell me, how do you maintain the security net and prevent abuses?
 
Harshaw said:
The idea that the government merely writing you a check means you accept its control over your life is entirely baffling to someone who truly understands and truly loves liberty.
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The reason the government is writing you a check is because you have expressed your inability to manage your own affairs. You've asked the government to take care of you, since you are incapable, and they are doing so.

Of all the civil liberties that are being eroded, the civil liberties of those who have publicly expressed their inability to handle their business matter the least to me.
 
tlmorg02 said:
My argument is that if the public is supporting you, then they should expect that you would comply with the laws of the land. If one on the government support system is unable to follow such laws, or are raising their kids to not do so, then the public interest is to monitor and correct such behavior.
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No, this is no excuse at all. George Orwell must be spinning in his god damn grave right now. This policy is monstrous and no amount of intellectual gymnastics could justify such a thing.

What about the children? Do they also have to surrender their liberty to the government simply because their parents are bums? Just because you can think up and excuse for such a thing DOES NOT mean it should be done. This is a frightful expansion of government. Truly terrifying.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I don't believe the government has a role in funding people who don't work, EVER, aside from those who are completely physically and/or mentally incapable of doing so.

However, if we do so, having worked a great deal with welfare families, I see a need for attaching strings to the dollars.
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As I said, you simply don't understand what you're saying.

Or, on the chance that you do, it's scary.

How this country shrugged off 200+ years of history and got this point pretty much entirely within my lifetime is amazing to me. NO ONE, except maybe some fringers, would have agreed with you guys 40 years ago. Now, you all nonchalantly accept the idea of casting liberty to the wind because of a few measly dollars.

So maybe people shouldn't mooch off taxpayers. They should not. But if you don't see that in a free country where liberty is cherished, the solution is NOT to restrict personal liberty, then you're really far gone.

I would say the country is well-primed for the oncoming totalitarian state, because as I said, you guys don't even know you're OK with it.
 
Ethereal said:
No, this is no excuse at all. George Orwell must be spinning in his god damn grave right now. This policy is monstrous and no amount of intellectual gymnastics could justify such a thing.

What about the children? Do they also have to surrender their liberty to the government simply because their parents are bums? Just because you can think up and excuse for such a thing DOES NOT mean it should be done. This is a frightful expansion of government. Truly terrifying.
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Why is it terrifying? How are the children giving-up anything? The parents are living on the tax payers, do you think that is ok?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
The reason the government is writing you a check is because you have expressed your inability to manage your own affairs. You've asked the government to take care of you, since you are incapable, and they are doing so.

Of all the civil liberties that are being eroded, the civil liberties of those who have publicly expressed their inability to handle their business matter the least to me.
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What's next? Anyone who walks into the DMV gets followed home by a plain-clothes-man to insure they don't break any traffic laws?

Yes, these people are recieving government assisstance but that doesn't justify draconian security measures being imposed upon entire families. I believe the children have rights too. Just because their guardians are seeking government assisstance doesn't mean their children should be subjected to this Orwellian security system. I cannot believe anyone could justify such a thing. It's patently disturbing. Very troubling indeed.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Why is it terrifying? How are the children giving-up anything? The parents are living on the tax payers, do you think that is ok?
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How do you not find the idea of 24-hour in-home camera monitoring, with periodic in-home checkups, terrifying?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
The reason the government is writing you a check is because you have expressed your inability to manage your own affairs. You've asked the government to take care of you, since you are incapable, and they are doing so.

Of all the civil liberties that are being eroded, the civil liberties of those who have publicly expressed their inability to handle their business matter the least to me.
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Civil liberties apply to EVERYONE, or they mean nothing at all. That's about as fundamental as it gets.

Good God, you people get more frightening as the thread goes on.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Why is it terrifying?
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Have you ever read a little book called 1984?

How are the children giving-up anything?
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That's the point. The children aren't "giving-up" anything. Their privacy is being taken away from them without their consent.

The parents are living on the tax payers, do you think that is ok?
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Of course not. I'm a libertarian, but this also means I fear centralized government authority. This is terrible.
 
Then what are your solutions? The problem the UK is having is that Welfare families are breeding more Welfare families and criminal teens, which are on the rise. What do you do short of taking the children away from the parents or ending Welfare? Either does nothing to prevent the increase in criminal teens.
 
Harshaw said:
How do you not find the idea of 24-hour in-home camera monitoring, with periodic in-home checkups, terrifying?
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Of course it is terrifying if it is happening to regular, tax paying citizens.
 
Harshaw said:
This is pretty scary, actually.

When conservatives, liberals, and nominal centrists all agree that the government writing you a check means you surrender your basic civil liberties, the Bill of Rights notwithstanding, we're heading down a road that we're never coming back from.
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The govenrment writing a check does nothing for our innate and inalienable rights. Maybe if it's done on a large enough scale, you'll get enough people dependent you'll get enough to surrender the exercise of their rights and not fight back; but that's it. Accepting money from the government isn't surrendering rights or liberties or any of it. That's stupid. I can take all the money I want from the government, welfare, unemployement, medicade/medicare, etc. and it still doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that I am the one in charge of the government, that I am of We the People, the source of all power and sovereignty the government wields. The base stays the same. Maybe we collectively say that "we want some form of limited welfare because **** happens from time to time and if we help people out while they get back on their feet, it behooves us all instead of letting them fall into abject poverty and homelessness". Fine, whatever, but if people need that money or qualify for that money, it's not saying "hey, the government can not monitor you 24/7". I mean ****, if someone gets a bank loan, financing on a vehicle, a mortgage now subject to surveillance and monitoring by the banks? Student loans get you looked on by the government? What does it take?

No, this whole "you give something up when you take money from the government" stuff is nothing short of tyrannical bull****.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Then what are your solutions?
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Easy. Phase out welfare programs.

The problem the UK is having is that Welfare families are breeding more Welfare families and criminal teens, which are on the rise.
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Further evidence that welfare programs create a cycle of dependency which perpetuates poverty and laziness. Phase the programs out slowly and put the onus back on individuals to provide for themselves.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Of course it is terrifying if it is happening to regular, tax paying citizens.
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Yea, it's no big deal when it happens to the "undesirables".
 
tlmorg02 said:
Of course it is terrifying if it is happening to regular, tax paying citizens.
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It's terrifying if it happens to ANYONE. These people are being watched around the clock in their own homes to make sure they're not doing anything wrong. How does this not terrify anyone who believes in freedom?

The ONLY legitimate reason in a free society to restrict liberty is in punishment of a duly-convicted crime. (Yes, there are some limited exceptions for emergencies, but merely accepting a welfare check is NOT an emergency.)

Honestly, what is WRONG with you people? Good grief, why not just round them all up into camps?
 
Ikari said:
The govenrment writing a check does nothing for our innate and inalienable rights. Maybe if it's done on a large enough scale, you'll get enough people dependent you'll get enough to surrender the exercise of their rights and not fight back; but that's it. Accepting money from the government isn't surrendering rights or liberties or any of it. That's stupid. I can take all the money I want from the government, welfare, unemployement, medicade/medicare, etc. and it still doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that I am the one in charge of the government, that I am of We the People, the source of all power and sovereignty the government wields. The base stays the same. Maybe we collectively say that "we want some form of limited welfare because **** happens from time to time and if we help people out while they get back on their feet, it behooves us all instead of letting them fall into abject poverty and homelessness". Fine, whatever, but if people need that money or qualify for that money, it's not saying "hey, the government can not monitor you 24/7". I mean ****, if someone gets a bank loan, financing on a vehicle, a mortgage now subject to surveillance and monitoring by the banks? Student loans get you looked on by the government? What does it take?

No, this whole "you give something up when you take money from the government" stuff is nothing short of tyrannical bull****.
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No one is suggesting the extremes you are portraying. It is that people are tired of supporting lazy, useless people, who will not work, continuously reproduce, and raise their children to live the same lifestyle or become criminals.
 
tlmorg02 said:
No one is suggesting the extremes you are portraying. It is that people are tired of supporting lazy, useless people, who will not work, continuously reproduce, and raise their children to live the same lifestyle or become criminals.
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So, not wanting to support them means you can violate their rights as you please?
 
Harshaw said:
It's terrifying if it happens to ANYONE. These people are being watched around the clock in their own homes to make sure they're not doing anything wrong. How does this not terrify anyone who believes in freedom?

The ONLY legitimate reason in a free society to restrict liberty is in punishment of a duly-convicted crime. (Yes, there are some limited exceptions for emergencies, but merely accepting a welfare check is NOT an emergency.)

Honestly, what is WRONG with you people? Good grief, why not just round them all up into camps?
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Good idea!! Oh, actually they already are, they are called projects, ghettos, whatever you like. I prefer to call it what it really is, government housing!
 
tlmorg02 said:
No one is suggesting the extremes you are portraying.
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You don't think this policy is extreme? What do you think Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin would have said?

It is that people are tired of supporting lazy, useless people, who will not work, continuously reproduce, and raise their children to live the same lifestyle or become criminals.
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First they came for the lazy, useless people, and I said nothing...
 
Harshaw said:
So, not wanting to support them means you can violate their rights as you please?
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Not if they give-up the Welfare money. Let it be a choice. Take the money and be watched, stop taking the money and live as you like.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Not if they give-up the Welfare money. Let it be a choice. Take the money and be watched, stop taking the money and live as you like.
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Government blackmail. That's nice.
 
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