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Remains of U.S. Pilot Missing 18 Years in Iraq Found

Catz Part Deux said:
And your opinion matters, why? How Americans choose to spend our money is not your concern.
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You can take my opinion with a grain of salt if you want, as I will yours... but people from all over the world come to participate here, not just Americans.

Get over yourself.
 
What resources were wasted?

If there are resources within or outside our military that are dedicated to the search and recovery of fallen military members, thats not a waste of resources, thats called using them for their intended purpose.
 
Orius said:
You can take my opinion with a grain of salt if you want, as I will yours... but people from all over the world come to participate here, not just Americans.

Get over yourself.
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Your opinion is irrelevant. This involves an internal American matter and given that you don't pay taxes here, your opinion of how we spend our money is of no importance.

Get over yourself. You don't get to tell us what our priorities are or should be.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Your opinion is irrelevant. This involves an internal American matter and given that you don't pay taxes here, your opinion of how we spend our money is of no importance.

Get over yourself. You don't get to tell us what our priorities are or should be.
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I wasn't trying to dictate your priotities? Stop being so defensive.

You can stop attacking me for not being American any time now. Thanks.
 
Listen Orius, this is essentially an obituary thread. You made an insensitive comment and people are holding your feet to the fire for it.
 
Orius said:
I wasn't trying to dictate your priotities? Stop being so defensive.

You can stop attacking me for not being American any time now. Thanks.
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I feel sorry for you that you aren't American. That's the last thing I'd attack you for. Poor Canadians. It must suck to be internationally castrated.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Listen Orius, this is essentially an obituary thread. You made an insensitive comment and people are holding your feet to the fire for it.
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I realize that, but it's not my job to hold their hand every time they have a temper tantrum because someone speaks against the grain. I won't pipe down as long as people are attacking me for having an opinion that doesn't coincide with their nationalism. I'm not American so I just might see things differently than they do. What a shocker.

The fact that people can't even see why anyone would think that it's a waste of resources to look for a soldier for 18 years shows their bias. I haven't insulted the soldier or his family, but I think that a search and rescue for that long would take a lot of man power and money that could be better spent on living people who are still active. I won't apologize for that.
 
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Orius said:
The fact that people can't even see why anyone would think that it's a waste of resources to look for a soldier for 18 years shows their bias. I haven't insulted the soldier or his family, but I think that a search and rescue for that long would take a lot of man power and money that could be better spent on living people who are still active. I won't apologize for that.
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That's pretty ridiculous.

I, for one, can see why a person would find that a waste of resources. It speaks volumes about that person's priorities and character. What it says exactly must be restricted to another forum on this site devoted to such remarks, though.
 
Orius said:
The fact that people can't even see why anyone would think that it's a waste of resources to look for a soldier for 18 years shows their bias. I haven't insulted the soldier or his family, but I think that a search and rescue for that long would take a lot of man power and money that could be better spent on living people who are still active. I won't apologize for that.
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I think it's a mistake on your part to think that we don't understand WHY you think it's a waste of resources. I understand perfectly what your perspective is.

It's just wrong, in light of my nation's ethics. If I wanted to live life by your warrior-less ethics, I'd move to a nation where my defense is subsidized by other nations with brave, red-blooded men & women still living in them. I'd know, every single day, that my nation was basically defenseless and beholden to the blood of the brave, amongst whose ranks I did not belong.

I'd throw stones from a distance, telling them that they were wrong-headed and stupid, and that the money spent to retrieve the bones of a man who died almost 20 years ago was wasted. I'd do everything in my power to feel like less of a coward, from a nation lead by cowards.

I'd be distinctly uncomfortable about the homage paid to the warrior culture by my neighbors to the south, knowing that my nation had essentially abolished everything that makes a nation free.

Let me spell it out for you clearly:

You know that we are somehow different from you, in a way that you cannot precisely articulate, and it makes your skin crawl.

I think I speak for most of the Americans here when I say that we're okay with that difference. And, we're okay with your skin-crawling and your discomfort.

You should feel those things. Your nation has surrendered everything that separates the free man from the slave, and you glory in your servitude.
 
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Orius said:
The fact that people can't even see why anyone would think that it's a waste of resources to look for a soldier for 18 years shows their bias. I haven't insulted the soldier or his family, but I think that a search and rescue for that long would take a lot of man power and money that could be better spent on living people who are still active. I won't apologize for that.
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Again, what rescources have been wasted?

Its not as if they have combed every square inch of the Iraqi desert looking for this guy for 18 years. The search was likely intense in the beginning, and faded off and was handed down through the years(along with other cases), with small investigations into claims on his whereabouts over the years and they finally came upon solid information which led to the discovery of his remains.

I fail to see how it is a waste of resources, when there are resources that are dedicated to this kind of mission.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by a777pilot
You state you are from Canada/China, therefore your observations and opinions are of no great importance to Americans. But, please, feel free to avail yourself of the freedoms our military, at great personal cost, have secured for the United States of America.

I see that nationalism overrides the ability to engage in logical debate. How sad.

......................................................................................................


Sad?


I am a United States Marine and a Naval Aviator. Sad? No ****ing way.

Proud! Yes.
 
a777pilot said:
Sad?


I am a United States Marine and a Naval Aviator. Sad? No ****ing way.

Proud! Yes.
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I always love getting former military aviators when I fly. You can always tell you have one when they handle that big, fat 747 like it's an F-16 or something.
 
Orius said:
No, were you?
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Of course not, which is why I don't presume to know better than they do.

Since you're the expert, please provide me with a cost/benefit analysis
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not affirmatively claiming that it was a good investment. I'm saying that:

1) The military is not populated by 35 IQ morons,
2) They have obviously thought this topic through far more than you or I,
3) They have access to far more information than you or I, and
4) It would be absolutely foolish for me to assume that I can decide whether they're right or wrong based on my incredibly limited knowledge.
 
Search and rescue assets are a vital part of a standing military. Pilots are worth their weight in gold, and being able to recover them is a significant edge in combat. However, with the lack of pilots getting shot down in Iraq, the soldiers tasked to such roles are not being employed. Using them in missions of secondary priority like this is a reasonable use of resources. Considering the PR value in a time when recruiting is down, the cost benefit analysis is quite favorable.

That said, people need to remember that war is a zero-sum game. Every resource spent in one place means that it isn't available somewhere else. Pilots get rescued because they are valuable, you don't see that kind of effort expended finding a rifleman. In this case it was reasonable to bring some closure to the family, but that isn't always possible.
 
rathi said:
Search and rescue assets are a vital part of a standing military. Pilots are worth their weight in gold, and being able to recover them is a significant edge in combat. However, with the lack of pilots getting shot down in Iraq, the soldiers tasked to such roles are not being employed. Using them in missions of secondary priority like this is a reasonable use of resources. Considering the PR value in a time when recruiting is down, the cost benefit analysis is quite favorable.

That said, people need to remember that war is a zero-sum game. Every resource spent in one place means that it isn't available somewhere else. Pilots get rescued because they are valuable, you don't see that kind of effort expended finding a rifleman. In this case it was reasonable to bring some closure to the family, but that isn't always possible.
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Take your well-thought out analysis and get the **** out of this thread.

;)
 
Alright what the ****.

Since Orius you have not yield to my request so be it time to pay the Devil.

First and for most your not an American so your feeble opion doesn't count nor shall it ever. We ( The United States) have had a standing policy since the end of our Civil War to NEVER Leave our dead on the Field and to never give up the search for OUR POW/MIA. It is part of the DoD job and is funded thru Congress to do so.

I suggest you take the time and read this link before you make any more assinine comments.

JPAC - Joint Prisoners of War, Missing in Action Accounting Command

Oh and for the record your Country of Canada also does these types of searchs. About 3 Months ago four Canadian Soldier remain were found at Dieppe and return back to Canada.

As for you rathi, you have no idea what your talking about we do not just go after Pilots that have been capture we go after all of our Men and Women does Jessica Lynch ring a bell for you huh???

As for are MIA searchs I also suggest you go and read the link that I posted and then after come back and HUMBLE admit you were wrong.
 
rathi said:
Search and rescue assets are a vital part of a standing military. Pilots are worth their weight in gold, and being able to recover them is a significant edge in combat. However, with the lack of pilots getting shot down in Iraq, the soldiers tasked to such roles are not being employed. Using them in missions of secondary priority like this is a reasonable use of resources. Considering the PR value in a time when recruiting is down, the cost benefit analysis is quite favorable.
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While Captain Speicher was listed as KIA, his whereabouts were unknown. As far as the U.S. military knew, he was a POW, and not deceased. Of course they are going to try and keep looking for his whereabouts...AS THEY SHOULD.
 
As for you rathi, you have no idea what your talking about we do not just go after Pilots that have been capture we go after all of our Men and Women does Jessica Lynch ring a bell for you huh???
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I never made such a claim. Our military rescues everyone it can, but circumstances prevent it from always being able to rescue everyone. Pilots are harder to replace than other soldiers, so they get priority for rescue. In Iraq, rescue is almost always practical because most units aren't engaged in heavy combat. In Vietnam, we didn't have that luxury and had to leave a lot of people behind.

As for are MIA searchs I also suggest you go and read the link that I posted and then after come back and HUMBLE admit you were wrong.
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Considering that you completely misunderstood my argument, I would suggest you don't go around calling other people humble.
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While Captain Speicher was listed as KIA, his whereabouts were unknown. As far as the U.S. military knew, he was a POW, and not deceased. Of course they are going to try and keep looking for his whereabouts...AS THEY SHOULD
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The chances of him still being a POW were close to zero. Saddam would have jumped at the propaganda oppurtunity, and we would have found records during the invasion. The investigation was to bring closure to the family and boost morale.
 
RightinNYC said:
Of course not, which is why I don't presume to know better than they do.



I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not affirmatively claiming that it was a good investment. I'm saying that:

1) The military is not populated by 35 IQ morons,
2) They have obviously thought this topic through far more than you or I,
3) They have access to far more information than you or I, and
4) It would be absolutely foolish for me to assume that I can decide whether they're right or wrong based on my incredibly limited knowledge.
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This is the most reasonable post out of everyone here, and I accept it. Thank you for not being volatile.

I was also thinking that another good reason to recover a particular individual would be if their recovery could mean learning about valuable intelligence. I do know that even Canada would pursue someone for this reason... but I'm not aware of any protocol for universally recovering any and all soldiers indefinitely, and if there were such a policy I would not support it.
 
Orius said:
This is the most reasonable post out of everyone here, and I accept it. Thank you for not being volatile.

I was also thinking that another good reason to recover a particular individual would be if their recovery could mean learning about valuable intelligence. I do know that even Canada would pursue someone for this reason... but I'm not aware of any protocol for universally recovering any and all soldiers indefinitely, and if there were such a policy I would not support it.
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Please stop talking. It's abundantly clear that you know nothing about this subject.
 
Orius said:
This is the most reasonable post out of everyone here, and I accept it. Thank you for not being volatile.

I was also thinking that another good reason to recover a particular individual would be if their recovery could mean learning about valuable intelligence. I do know that even Canada would pursue someone for this reason... but I'm not aware of any protocol for universally recovering any and all soldiers indefinitely, and if there were such a policy I would not support it.
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Well then I guess your not much of a True Canadian then are you mine as well stay in Chine oh opps can't stay their either they also have a policy of searching and recovering their MIA's hmm let see then the only Country that I know of that doesn't have a ongoing JPAC version is England their you go found you a Country you can now go and live in.
 
rathi said:
Search and rescue assets are a vital part of a standing military. Pilots are worth their weight in gold, and being able to recover them is a significant edge in combat. However, with the lack of pilots getting shot down in Iraq, the soldiers tasked to such roles are not being employed. Using them in missions of secondary priority like this is a reasonable use of resources. Considering the PR value in a time when recruiting is down, the cost benefit analysis is quite favorable.

That said, people need to remember that war is a zero-sum game. Every resource spent in one place means that it isn't available somewhere else. Pilots get rescued because they are valuable, you don't see that kind of effort expended finding a rifleman. In this case it was reasonable to bring some closure to the family, but that isn't always possible.
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This makes a lot more sense... thanks for shedding light on it for me. :)

Can I ask why pilots are more valuable? Is it because they are harder to train? In my mind, ground troops have a higher chance of encountering situations of valuable intelligence, whereas pilots are just in the air as part of their combat.

Also... I just want to clarify that I think short-term search and rescue makes sense. If someone goes missing now then looking for them now is practical. I just don't think it's practical to actively search for someone for 18 years, unless that individual is suspected of having special intelligence that is useful to operations.
 
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Orius said:
This makes a lot more sense... thanks for shedding light on it for me. :)

Can I ask why pilots are more valuable? Is it because they are harder to train? In my mind, ground troops have a higher chance of encountering situations of valuable intelligence, whereas pilots are just in the air as part of their combat.

Also... I just want to clarify that I think short-term search and rescue makes sense. If someone goes missing now then looking for them now is practical. I just don't think it's practical to actively search for someone for 18 years, unless that individual is suspected of having special intelligence that is useful to operations.
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I think the only way you could say pilots are more valuable is just in the cost of training alone. Beyond that I think the military command in the U.S. considers pretty much everyone equal when it comes to rescue/retrieval.

I don't think they were actively searching for 18 years, but rather the file has been left open until definitive answers were provided. In terms of cost, I don't think one soldier will be that costly as to second guess whether this policy should continue. On the other hand I think we should accept that in a conflict the size of WWII it is simply impractical to search for every soldier. But even today when proof or evidence can lead to recovery, the government has never had an issue with the costs. It is both good for moral for the soldiers, but also in a way a small price we can as citizens pay back to those who sacrificed.
 
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