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Thread: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

  1. #41
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    You already know I'm Canadian, so this is either a bait question, or you honestly forgot. In any case, downloading and sharing are not illegal yet in Canada, and to ensure that it stays that way, I have already written to my MP several times.
    I honestly didn't remember that, my apologies.

    My advice was targeted toward those in the US who hold that view.

    Is there really no law in Canada against copyright infringement? That seems a bit odd.
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Is there really no law in Canada against copyright infringement? That seems a bit odd.
    There is but its in flux. Canadians tax CD-R's which profits go to the music industry.

    In a previous ruling in 2004 it was ruled that uploading and downloading music was legal (BMG canada inc v john Doe). However the case was appealed and the decision set aside. Since then bills have presented to address this issue but all have failed. The issue is simply waiting for a lawsuit for the courts to clarify.

    Downloading books, movies, or software that is not covered under "fair dealing" (slightly different than fair use) is still illegal. Music is just a more complex issue.

    That's what I dug up in about an hour of searching and reading.
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    1) Produce better quality products. Freeware and free music is overwelmingly ****ty.
    Given the quantity of freeware, I doubt that you have tried enough to actually quantified that accurately.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    2) Specialize in their area of interest.
    You need IP to do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    3) Develop their area of interest faster and better with the funding they receive.
    That I'll agree with

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    4) Get kicked out of the market if their product sucks and dominate if it their product iis valueable.
    Yeah, right. Look at the **** the RIAA is cranking out lately. Soulja Boy? *gag*

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    IP laws are very specific.
    Yeah, trademark, copyright, and patent are simple, the issues behind them, and the ways they have been manipulated/broken (Patent and Copyright specifically) and the ways to fix it are not that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    ...repeated over and over again by those who wish to brush aside the very consistent and reasonable protections and extent of IP.
    Bull****.

    Most of the people I've seen explain copyright/trademark/patent law - who had a beef with it as it is - covered all the basics quite well, and was able to articulate an argument against how the system is right now... oh wait, everything relating to corporate manipulation of IP law is a conspiracy to you, right...




    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    A staggering majority of freeware and free products are ****.
    Again, have you really tried enough freeware to actually be able to come even CLOSE to a generalization quite that absurd?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Its not equal to the price of a single song because he didn't steal a single song. He stole the equivalent of a warehouse of songs.
    Actually, he didn't steal anything, he violated the exclusive monopoly of distribution over XYZ songs he had. Since you like to talk about crime, apparent in this topic post, it would be important to get the crime right first.
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    By that same token they should still have the cd package available for sale. MP3s are fine, but nothing really beats owning the package itself. I usually only buy cds if I enjoy the artist. Then again, if I don't enjoy the artist I usually delete the MP3s. A lot of lower budget indie bands rely heavily on CD sales and I'm more than happy to contribute.
    I agree with this, and as I've said in past threads, I support local artists in my area who I like by buying their material. What I don't support is corporate tripe.

    I support a market where there is the free option as well as the packaged CD option. There is always the advantage of owning the CD with the cover art. If you really love the artist, it's memorable.

    What we are seeing are big corporations getting upset because they can't make as much money anymore. Instead of $10 billion they are making $4 billion. I would say that given the choice between a market that includes both free and purchasing options which allows them to profit $4 billion versus a market where they want to eliminate the free option and alienate their customers, I would settle for the compromise.

    But these companies have proven that they don't give a damn about art and only care about money, and they will attack people like the student in the OP just to prove a point. I bought CDs before but now I won't buy any because I won't support the unethical behavior of these companies.

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Also you keep saying it isn't illegal for Canadians to upload or download. Uploading and downloading isn't illegal for people in the US either. Its only illegal when you violate IP laws. That is, not all uploading and downloading of IP is illegal. Are you trying to say Canada has no IP laws or are you just being dishonest?
    I will only respond to this since the rest is just moralistic subjectivity. I don't agree with extremists who think that artists should not be allowed to profit at all, but by the same token I don't agree with the opposite side of the coin who thinks that free distribution should be illegal across the board. I think both can co-exist while still allowing artists to make money.

    The issue is profit maximization. Corporations aren't happy with the billions they are already making, so they are attacking the public. This tactic will fail.

    As for Canada... no, mp3 distribution is not illegal. As for Canada's IP laws, I don't know if they have been revised since I read about them a few years ago, but you are allowed to download and possess ANY copyrighted material as long as you delete it within 24 hours. The law refers to "demo" and "sampling" purposes. If it is for educational purposes, you can obtain it indefinitely.

    This is long enough for me to watch a movie I want to see and then be done with it. Though, I, of course, don't care about the 24 hour rule and I will keep it if I want.
    Last edited by Orion; 08-04-09 at 07:02 AM.

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Ipod Classic holds 30,000 songs

    they sell them for $1 each

    so they expect a person to pay $30,000 to fill up the Ipod

    considering that an average Ipod user is a teenage girl it is a perfectly reasonable price

    only a bit over 100X the price of the Ipod itself

    perhaps if you are late returning a tape to blockbuster they should take away your house because *GASP* you might have willfully let your spouse watch the film and she didn't pay for it !
    Last edited by NEUROSPORT; 08-04-09 at 07:54 AM.

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by stekim View Post
    What happens? Depends. What happens for sure is that for the next 7 years the kid isn't getting any form of credit. There is a $650,000 judgment on his credit report, after all. What happens next depends on the record company. The judge can order assets seized. He can order garnishment of wages. But will they ever collect $650,000? No. Do they even want to? I doubt it.
    I think in the long run it will cost the record more money going after these these people.

    They are merely trying to make an example of random thieves to discourage other thieves. But they cannot collect what someone does not have. And I doubt they will bother collecting anything. They already got what they wanted.

    Theft requires illegally depriving someone of their property, these people were not deprived of their property.What these people have done is no different than someone who records a song off the radio or someone with some carpentry skills who made a copy of a table he saw in the store or a painter who made a copy of a picture he saw hanging in a museum or someone who uses a VCR or digital video recorder to record a tv show.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I will only respond to this since the rest is just moralistic subjectivity.
    There was nothing about morals in that at all. You claimed Americans can't legally upload or download. I explained why that statement is wrong. Americans can upload and download. We can even upload and download IP. We just can't upload and download IP in violation of IP laws. So I can upload content for my family to a server or as backup, I just can't upload content for the entire world without the permission of the IP holder.

    Additionally I showed how its illegal for Canadians to upload and download IP in violation of "fair dealing", though music is currently an exception because of levies and ambiguity in the court ruling. However, software, movies, and art are still protected with laws similiar to that in the US.

    I don't agree with extremists who think that artists should not be allowed to profit at all, but by the same token I don't agree with the opposite side of the coin who thinks that free distribution should be illegal across the board. I think both can co-exist while still allowing artists to make money.
    The problem is if I can get something for free instead of paying for it then I'm not going to pay for it.

    The levy system in Canada attempts to address this but it has several serious flaws.

    The issue is profit maximization. Corporations aren't happy with the billions they are already making, so they are attacking the public. This tactic will fail.
    I'm not a corporation and I think IP should stay as it is. Furthermore, even IF the corporations wanted it for whatever strawman you wish to knock down, the rationale for IP continues to stand..

    As for Canada... no, mp3 distribution is not illegal.
    Actually it still is. From what I read you can download whatever the hell is on the net but you can't upload except if it falls under "fair dealing", which if you are uploading to torrents or sharing sites would be illegal. However, I doubt they'd come after you but it still clarified as illegal in Canada.

    As for Canada's IP laws, I don't know if they have been revised since I read about them a few years ago, but you are allowed to download and possess ANY copyrighted material as long as you delete it within 24 hours. The law refers to "demo" and "sampling" purposes.
    I looked for this and found nothing about sampling or demo and this 24 hour grace period. Got a link?

    If it is for educational purposes, you can obtain it indefinitely.
    Same in the US. Non-profit educational purposes falls under fair use.

    This is long enough for me to watch a movie I want to see and then be done with it. Though, I, of course, don't care about the 24 hour rule and I will keep it if I want.
    Assuming this demo and sampling you are doing is even legal in Canada. So far I've found nothing that suggests anyone for whatever reason can violate Canadian copyright law.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think the individual should be fined no more than the market value of the songs if he paid for them at a store. And if they are going to fine people for distribution. Then the record company should have to prove in a court of law exactly how many people this individual distributed this song too and still make him pay market value of this song.For example he uploads to 70 people and this song can be purchased for dollar on a legal download site then that fine for distributing that song should be 70 dollars assuming those each of those 70 people fully downloaded a whole song from that individual and not just partial download. If they can't prove this then they have no business making people pay these excessive fines.
    That I agree with. I think that fits the crime more than the obnoxious amount they are charging him.

    That said, he did break the law.
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by NEUROSPORT View Post
    Ipod Classic holds 30,000 songs

    they sell them for $1 each

    so they expect a person to pay $30,000 to fill up the Ipod

    considering that an average Ipod user is a teenage girl it is a perfectly reasonable price

    only a bit over 100X the price of the Ipod itself

    perhaps if you are late returning a tape to blockbuster they should take away your house because *GASP* you might have willfully let your spouse watch the film and she didn't pay for it !
    Well, for one, many people out there are into more music than is available on itunes. I for one get a lot of free music from artists around the world that allow people to have their music. Much of what I listen to is ambient music (while reading) and there are tons of artists around the world that produce ambient music for free. Anyway, the itunes model is not the only model and ipods are not the only players (I refuse to buy one for a number of reasons).
    It's time for a revolution in our country. Not a revolution forged with guns and bombs but a revolution forged of compassion and altruism. A revolution that extends a hand to those who don't have and who cannot. A revolution that makes Health Care available to all those in the US.

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