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Thread: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

  1. #31
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If these people they excessively fine can not pay then what happens, is the record company still out what ever fines the court awarded them?
    I have no idea. The large fine is their way of making a statement, nothing more. The record industry in its current form is doomed and they know it. This is why bands like Metallica are even embracing free downloads now. The band Nine Inch Nails are also giving their latest album away from free. It's an unstoppable tidal wave.

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Music should be free. Period. The idea that a company can own the words to a song or the chords of a melody for 100+ years is utterly preposterous. These companies are turning art into their own personal profit machine and I don't agree with it. Furthermore, they are abusing the legal and lobbying systems for their financial gain.

    A $20,000 fine does not equal the cost of a song if bought. The quantity is completely inflated and arbitrary, and is only reflective of their cruelty, and nothing more.

  3. #33
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Music should be free. Period. The idea that a company can own the words to a song or the chords of a melody for 100+ years is utterly preposterous. These companies are turning art into their own personal profit machine and I don't agree with it. Furthermore, they are abusing the legal and lobbying systems for their financial gain.

    A $20,000 fine does not equal the cost of a song if bought. The quantity is completely inflated and arbitrary, and is only reflective of their cruelty, and nothing more.
    By that same token they should still have the cd package available for sale. MP3s are fine, but nothing really beats owning the package itself. I usually only buy cds if I enjoy the artist. Then again, if I don't enjoy the artist I usually delete the MP3s. A lot of lower budget indie bands rely heavily on CD sales and I'm more than happy to contribute.

  4. #34
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    You know what grinds my gears is that almost the same exact ground that defends pirating and downloads is the same crowd that whines about DRM and copy protection.
    That's a very tall accusation.

    There are, of course, very legitimate gripes about DRM, and oftentimes those in support of copyright reform/opposing DRM separate from the die hard pirates just because of this simpleton lumping of the two parties together.



    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    The whole reason we have expanding DRM and CP schemes is a result of increase in un-authorized distribution of media. They act as if this is also some devilish new scheme by evil corporations.
    Well, when they [media corporations] start talking about DRM'd products expiring on the user forcing them to re-purchase something not bought as a rental in the first place, when groups like Sony start doing stupid stuff like putting spyware in their CDs, when copy protection inhibits legitimate use of digital media, it really isn't hard to see what all the bitchin' is about.

    It. Doesn't. Work. It. Just. Pisses. Consumers. Off. While. Pirates. Work. Around. It.

    How hard is it for them to understand that?


    [quote=sam_w;1058170510]What most fail to understand is that their is an economic impact that can come right back to hit them on the @$$. The best example are TV shows popularly downloaded. This last spring on FOX they had two Scifi shows; Terminator series and Dollhouse. Both with equally dismal ratings. Yet one was canceled, the other given a new season for one simple reason. [/WUOTE]

    Of course one can argue that if correlation is not equal to causation, than to say one failing because of bad ratings is due to piracy in of itself is a stretch. There has to be more to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    The spread of pirating also limits the ability now of small/independent developers in making an actual living.
    Really? How can you substantiate this soundly? It makes it more challenging, but most independent artists I know are smart enough to at least try to tackle the issue instead of hiding with his tail behind his legs. Many indie artists even USE P2P/Torrents/Youtube to promote their works.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Music should be free. Period. .
    I disagree with that. The music artist should be able to package cds,sell concert tickets and cds at those concerts. In this regard the music artist is no different than someone with actual talent who paints a picture or makes a table or chair. They should be free to profit from their work just like the landscaper who trims the bushes for a living or the business man who increases profits for his company.

    The idea that a company can own the words to a song or the chords of a melody for 100+ years is utterly preposterous.
    I agree with that.



    These companies are turning art into their own personal profit machine and I don't agree with it.
    One of the reasons for art is profit, not every artist promotes him or herself.

    Furthermore, they are abusing the legal and lobbying systems for their financial gain.
    That I agree with

    A $20,000 fine does not equal the cost of a song if bought.
    I agree with that as well. A fine in a civil matter being paid to a private company should be no more than what the market value of a song is.


    The quantity is completely inflated and arbitrary, and is only reflective of their cruelty, and nothing more
    I am not sure if that has anything to do with it other than simple greed and the record company trying to make a handful of people pay for the actions of millions of other people.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  6. #36
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I always wondered about this from a property rights stance. I buy the CD, it's mine. Period. If I want to make a copy and give it to my son, that should be my right.

    What's next? Cars? "Well sir, YOU bought the car, not your son. He cannot drive it unless you pay an additional fee."

    Not the same, I understand, but in my mind this is simply too heavy handed. I like jamesrages solution. At least limit the fines to that of what the song can be legally purchased for. The punitive side of this thing is just ridiculous.
    The problem is that the record companies hold copyright, practically intellectual property, and they see as you reproducing (copying it for your son) as an infraction of the copyright because you are not allowed (for example) film a rehearsal of Wicked, and open up your own Wicked performance without misusing what is considered intellectual property.

    The problem for the record companies, which usually turns into more of a blessing for consumers, is that you will be "under the radar" if you launch your performance, or if you duplicate a CD for your son, as long as there is no evidence of you busting into the companies' market; basically, if there's no money to be gained, the CEOs would rather not waste the resources.

    Now, if the record companies were to patch the intellectual property, thus ownership, of the material on a CD, then they would have to worry about you duplicating and setting up a stand and selling the CDs for much cheaper than it took the company to record and pay the talents involved.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  7. #37
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I always wondered about this from a property rights stance. I buy the CD, it's mine. Period. If I want to make a copy and give it to my son, that should be my right.
    It is. Its either fair-use or not protected by IP.

    Not the same, I understand, but in my mind this is simply too heavy handed. I like jamesrages solution. At least limit the fines to that of what the song can be legally purchased for. The punitive side of this thing is just ridiculous.
    but it is NOT equivalent to simple theft. Its not like this guy took one song. Its the equivalent of him stealing a warehouse full of CDs which is one reason why the fine is so much greater.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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  8. #38
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Why would I do something so stupid as to engage the secret service? lol.
    I did not say you should, and in all actuality you shouldn't.
    The point was that you are not as secure as you think you are in using an anonymizer. By your response, I am sure you realize that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    The moral argument is insufficient in the democratic world. The vast majority of people download and see nothing wrong with it.
    No it isn't.
    The vast majority of people download? Where do you get that stat from?
    Just because people do it, doesn't make it right.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It is illegal because of a minority that is lobbying government to do it. Democratically, the majority do not agree with this assessment of the situation. Patenting and copyright law both need reform in the modern arena. The people have spoken. They have defined the modern trend.
    It is illegal because it is wrong to do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I realize this, but I'm saying that this should be factored into their profit losses. One download does not always equal one lost sale.
    Honestly. That doesn't matter. But it is how it must be computed, because they those who have downloaded have taken possession of something that they are not legally allowed to take possession of.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    If you're going to start dishing out insults in substitution of rational arguments, then this debate is over.
    Sorry, but that isn't an insult. It happens to be true.
    Justifying ones actions when they are engaged in illegal activity is part of the criminal thought process.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm not taking anything. I'm copying. They still have their product in hand.
    You still are taking possession of something that you have no legal authority to possess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Once again, continue with the ad homs and I won't be replying to you.
    Sorry, but once again, that isn't an insult. It happens to be true.
    Justifying ones actions when they are engaged in illegal activity is part of the criminal thought process.
    So if you actually thought that I insulted you, I apologize for the impression. I am only stating what is true, it is part of the criminal thought process.
    Last edited by Coolguy; 08-03-09 at 03:29 PM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Music should be free. Period.
    I disagree. And I'm glad IP laws exist so people can easily become professionals so they can:
    1) Produce better quality products. Freeware and free music is overwelmingly ****ty.
    2) Specialize in their area of interest.
    3) Develop their area of interest faster and better with the funding they receive.
    4) Get kicked out of the market if their product sucks and dominate if it their product iis valueable.

    The idea that a company can own the words to a song or the chords of a melody for 100+ years is utterly preposterous.
    IP laws are very specific. This dishonest over simplification of IP is repeated over and over again by those who wish to brush aside the very consistent and reasonable protections and extent of IP.

    These companies are turning art into their own personal profit machine and I don't agree with it.
    Yes they are. Because that's how people specialize, become professionals, advance the industry, and produce quality.

    A staggering majority of freeware and free products are ****. Why you would want this to become commonplace boggles the mind. You want to turn art and other industries that rely on IP into hobbies!!!!!????

    Furthermore, they are abusing the legal and lobbying systems for their financial gain.

    A $20,000 fine does not equal the cost of a song if bought. The quantity is completely inflated and arbitrary, and is only reflective of their cruelty, and nothing more.
    Its not equal to the price of a single song because he didn't steal a single song. He stole the equivalent of a warehouse of songs. Furthermore the price is inflated to deter crimes because they are particularly prevalent.


    Also you keep saying it isn't illegal for Canadians to upload or download. Uploading and downloading isn't illegal for people in the US either. Its only illegal when you violate IP laws. That is, not all uploading and downloading of IP is illegal. Are you trying to say Canada has no IP laws or are you just being dishonest?
    Last edited by scourge99; 08-03-09 at 03:19 PM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  10. #40
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If these people they excessively fine can not pay then what happens, is the record company still out what ever fines the court awarded them?
    What happens? Depends. What happens for sure is that for the next 7 years the kid isn't getting any form of credit. There is a $650,000 judgment on his credit report, after all. What happens next depends on the record company. The judge can order assets seized. He can order garnishment of wages. But will they ever collect $650,000? No. Do they even want to? I doubt it. They are merely trying to make an example of random thieves to discourage other thieves. But they cannot collect what someone does not have. And I doubt they will bother collecting anything. They already got what they wanted.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

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