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Thread: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

  1. #21
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Won't happen in places where it is needed the most, like China. The recording industry can try to lobby every government in the world, but it won't work... and even if it does, good luck tracking everyone who downloads.
    Once the illegalization and criminal prosecution starts, it will continue, even into China.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    The digital and internet community will just compensate with anonymizers, as they are already doing.
    If you really think you are safe using an anonymizer. Engage it, spoof your email address and then send the President an email that would get the Secret Service's attention.
    It won't be long before you find out just how safe you aren't.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    No there isn't. Stop fearmongering on behalf of the recording industry. I use an anonymizer so my downloading is untraceable. You should use one anyway because some torrents are not secure and your computer can theoretically be infultrated via exploited bugs.
    Ha, ha, ha. Doh!
    It is not fear mongering when it is true.
    But like I said. Try out that little experiment to see just how safe you aren't.

    Also, like I said, I would not use torrents or file sharing programs because the risk is greater.
    Why is the risk greater?
    Because that is where the focus currently resides.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    No they don't. There is no difference between buying a DVD and downloading one in terms of product value. I just want to watch the movie, ...
    The value of the product is the same, regardless if it is stolen it or not.
    You took possession of something that you are not legally allowed to.
    If you want to watch the movie, then pay for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Not true. First of all, the recording industry, along with the movie industry, has perpetuated the lie that they have lost billions of dollars. If you do a bit of research, you will discover that this figure is not based on records of their corporate bank accounts, but rather on the calculation that one download equals one lost sale.
    I do not like that they exaggerate the figures, but that still does not excuse one who engages in the activity.

    But no, the positive incentive is that you get the product for personal use.
    If you wish to engage in something that is illegal, go ahead, I am not going to stop you.
    But I do find it ridiculous that you try and defend/justify your illegal behavior.
    That is part of the criminal thought process.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    In actual fact, many people who download end up buying, but this is never factored into their published profit losses.
    Very few people actual buy any significant portion of what they download. Just more justifying.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    They're not even reporting their losses with honesty, so why should I even care how their company is being affected?
    More of the criminal thought process.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    All they care about is villainizing people who are simply using a tool of a new, digital era, where content sharing is seamless and universal.
    Sharing is done with content that is meant to be shared. That which isn't, becomes taking something for nothing, something you legally are not entitled to take.
    Care to share more of this criminal thought process?

  2. #22
    Educator sam_w's Avatar
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Well you seem to think that a record company shouldn't make any money and give their product away for free. That's pretty asinine.
    The better question to this response is if a media company has their product continuously taken for free, what is the whole point in releasing as such?

    You know what grinds my gears is that almost the same exact ground that defends pirating and downloads is the same crowd that whines about DRM and copy protection. The whole reason we have expanding DRM and CP schemes is a result of increase in un-authorized distribution of media. They act as if this is also some devilish new scheme by evil corporations.

    What most fail to understand is that their is an economic impact that can come right back to hit them on the @$$. The best example are TV shows popularly downloaded. This last spring on FOX they had two Scifi shows; Terminator series and Dollhouse. Both with equally dismal ratings. Yet one was canceled, the other given a new season for one simple reason. It comes down to who produced said series, and thus who will retain DVD revenue. The Terminator franchise is owned by Warner Brothers, yet it aired on FOX. Dollhouse on the other hand is produced by FOX studios, thus FOX will receive a portion of DVD sales.

    Last year we saw the end of SciFi channel's Stargate Atlantis and Battlestar Galactic. Both of these also had similar ratings, yet Stargate is owned by MGM, Battlestar was produced by NBC (owner of Scifi channel). While Battlestar was immensely more expensive to produce, SciFi did keep it on the air longer that it normally would for one sole reason; they will retain DVD sales. Stargate on the other hand provides Scfi with no DVD sales, so even though it got about the same ratings, and was much cheaper to produce that show was ended.

    Now let's explore further to the HBO and Showtime series. These of course are produced by HBO and Showtime themselves, aired for free on their network without commercials. So then these shows alone are dependent solely on the expectation now of DVD sales. For HBO and Showtime it will take a minimum of 5 years/100 episodes before they can resell for syndication. Before that these costly shows are reliant on one thing financially; DVD sales. Hence why HBO and Showtime are the most proactive in stopping the spread of pirated DVDs of their shows.

    Now I don't think it takes a lot of economic theory here to figure out in all these examples the result if DVD sales begin to slow while we have a rise in pirating. Point one is that studios are willing to let shows survive longer than they should because of one expectation and hope; lost ad revenue will be regained through DVD sales. Thus the a slowdown in sales could/would only hastened the end of said show.

    Point two is that the days of free as in beer airings of TV shows are ending, at least for the networks. What I mean is that networks no longer can support shows by simply using the ad generated model. They are dependent upon the sales to consumers.

    For game companies, more and more games are no longer something that can be chewed out every few months. I believe the average production time is coming close to two years. That is two years of a burn of expenses without any revenue generated. The result of the industry over the past decade as seen the death of independent small house developers either going bankrupt or being purchased by larger firms. The result has been much less in innovation and risk taking, and increase in bland generic titles....hello Madden 2010. Games of course are ever so popular to pirate, and of course each copy downloaded is a copy of revenue lost to the firm that just burned x millions, all of which needs to be paid back to investors.

    The spread of pirating also limits the ability now of small/independent developers in making an actual living. On a personal note I happen to know this one person who sells a application for $10, to which users who purchase get a lifetime of upgrades. That is ten freaking dollars, yet his applications are seen quite often being pirated. This has been much discussed, and to date he has not enacted in draconian methods to prevent this or limit the ability of people to crack it. So this does affect me personally, me who has spent the whole whopping $10. If at some point he determines it is no longer financially viable to continue, I lose out because some people are too freaking cheap to spend a measly $10.

    In summary, there is a very real world consequence to a massive increase in the spread of pirated media. TV shows, HBO series, games, and software are dependent upon revenue to be able to continue. Doesn't take rocket science to figure out if the revenue drops and it no longer makes economic sense to continue, who loses? Everyone does.

  3. #23
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So why don't you get your Congressman to revise the law?

    Seems like that's an easier way of dealing with all of this.
    You already know I'm Canadian, so this is either a bait question, or you honestly forgot. In any case, downloading and sharing are not illegal yet in Canada, and to ensure that it stays that way, I have already written to my MP several times.

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    Once the illegalization and criminal prosecution starts, it will continue, even into China.
    Really? Under whose authority? Even at top levels, pirating is the source of China's innovation. It's why companies are reluctant to bring their intellectual property to their market anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    If you really think you are safe using an anonymizer. Engage it, spoof your email address and then send the President an email that would get the Secret Service's attention.
    It won't be long before you find out just how safe you aren't.
    Why would I do something so stupid as to engage the secret service? lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    Ha, ha, ha. Doh!
    It is not fear mongering when it is true.
    But like I said. Try out that little experiment to see just how safe you aren't.


    Downloading isn't illegal in Canada, nor is sharing. I use an anonymizer anyway, just because it's more secure for peer 2 peer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    Also, like I said, I would not use torrents or file sharing programs because the risk is greater.
    Why is the risk greater?
    Because that is where the focus currently resides.
    They'll only catch a minority of people... I'm not really worried. If they want to invest billions in going after every single person who downloads, they can be my guest. I'll just laugh as their industry goes under. It makes no sense for them to invest more money than profits lost, which is why they are engaged in a select few high profile cases like the one we are discussing now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    The value of the product is the same, regardless if it is stolen it or not.
    You took possession of something that you are not legally allowed to.
    If you want to watch the movie, then pay for it.
    If they want me to stop downloading, then they should stop making DVDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    I do not like that they exaggerate the figures, but that still does not excuse one who engages in the activity.


    The moral argument is insufficient in the democratic world. The vast majority of people download and see nothing wrong with it. That moral imperative should be written into law. Instead, corporate powers are lobbying governments with their money, and this is overriding democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    But no, the positive incentive is that you get the product for personal use.
    If you wish to engage in something that is illegal, go ahead, I am not going to stop you.
    But I do find it ridiculous that you try and defend/justify your illegal behavior.
    That is part of the criminal thought process.
    It is illegal because of a minority that is lobbying government to do it. Democratically, the majority do not agree with this assessment of the situation. Patenting and copyright law both need reform in the modern arena. The people have spoken. They have defined the modern trend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    Very few people actual buy any significant portion of what they download. Just more justifying.
    I realize this, but I'm saying that this should be factored into their profit losses. One download does not always equal one lost sale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    More of the criminal thought process.
    If you're going to start dishing out insults in substitution of rational arguments, then this debate is over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    Sharing is done with content that is meant to be shared. That which isn't, becomes taking something for nothing, something you legally are not entitled to take.
    Care to share more of this criminal thought process?
    I'm not taking anything. I'm copying. They still have their product in hand.

    Once again, continue with the ad homs and I won't be replying to you.

  5. #25
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    I always wondered about this from a property rights stance. I buy the CD, it's mine. Period. If I want to make a copy and give it to my son, that should be my right.

    What's next? Cars? "Well sir, YOU bought the car, not your son. He cannot drive it unless you pay an additional fee."

    Not the same, I understand, but in my mind this is simply too heavy handed. I like jamesrages solution. At least limit the fines to that of what the song can be legally purchased for. The punitive side of this thing is just ridiculous.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Coolguy View Post
    The news report is misleading.

    He was not found guilty of "downloading".

    His crime was in making it 'available for others', allowing them to download the files from his computer.


    Some people would turn that firing around and attempt to sue their employer for that amount if they felt they were wrongly terminated.


    Regardless the fine imposed on the individual is excessive.
    I agree that the fine is excessive, but there does need to be something in the way of punishment. Distributing the works of artists without paying for them is theft of their intellectual property and livlihood.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    And to add, the excessive fining is a shining example of how bad lobbyist can bend the legislation to allow the RIAA to use courts to serve as financial bullies.
    *insert profound statement here*

  8. #28
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I agree that the fine is excessive, but there does need to be something in the way of punishment.

    Since this is a civil matter then make them pay market price for the song they illegally downloaded. If they are not getting them on downloading but distribution instead. Then the record company should have to prove in a court of law how many people this person illegally distributed whole songs too and if it partial songs then then multiple partials can be added up to a whole song(for example ten people download 1/10 of a song,then those ten make up a whole song). This solution ensures they get what the person owes them instead of trying to make one person pay for the misdeeds of other people.

    Distributing the works of artists without paying for them is theft of their intellectual property and livlihood.
    Theft requires depriving someone of their property against their will. The artist still has his property unless he signed his rights away to the record company then it is the record company's property in that case.Calling it theft is blatantly dishonest.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 08-03-09 at 11:34 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    It's sad that the record industry has to resort to this kind of fear mongering in order to try and desperately save their dying industry. The fact of the matter is that there are too many people to go after so they have to pull publicity stunts like this and make an example of one guy in an attempt to scare the other downloaders out there. Unfortunately for them, it's not going to work.

  10. #30
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    Re: Student ordered to pay $650,000 for downloads

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    It's sad that the record industry has to resort to this kind of fear mongering in order to try and desperately save their dying industry. The fact of the matter is that there are too many people to go after so they have to pull publicity stunts like this and make an example of one guy in an attempt to scare the other downloaders out there. Unfortunately for them, it's not going to work.
    If these people they excessively fine can not pay then what happens, is the record company still out what ever fines the court awarded them?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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