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Thread: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

  1. #81
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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    True, the officer should be allowed to defend himself, but that isn't the argument. We are talking about a suspect fleeing the scene, and who may not be firing a weapon or threatening the officer's life in any way. The suspect is simply fleeing.

    If he's guilty, then let a court of law determine that. The officer's job is simply to arrest the suspect in such a case, not to play judge, jury, and executioner.
    If the subject attempts to harm/kill an officer, then he presents a clear and present danger to civilians, therein must be stopped at all costs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You know, if your community decided they don't want police shooting fleeing perps under any circumstances, no matter how egregious, then fine: lots of luck with that. I'd just like everyone to understand the surrounding issues and make a well-informed judgement.

    My community doesn't have a problem with it, when the perp is a known danger to the community. To each his own.
    'Under any circumstances', no, as there are plenty of circumstances where the officer should use deadly force. If the officer's life is in danger, for instance, or someone else's life is in danger. You and I could both sit down and come to an agreement there. Apparently we part ways on the police officer shooting at a suspect simply for fleeing the scene.

    It's fine if you believe that our laws should be re-written so that suspects are automatically guilty until proven innocent, and that police should be allowed to act as judge, jury, and executioner. I disagree, however, and would prefer guilt or innocence to be decided as per the methodology of our legal system derived from our Constitution and subsequent court cases thereof.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If the subject attempts to harm/kill an officer, then he presents a clear and present danger to civilians, therein must be stopped at all costs.
    And if he doesn't and simply flees, then he does not represent a threat to the officer. He's innocent until proven guilty. Let the courts decide if he is, in fact, actually guilty. The officer's job is simply to detain the individual fleeing, not to execute him.
    Last edited by Singularity; 08-03-09 at 12:16 AM.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    'Under any circumstances', no, as there are plenty of circumstances where the officer should use deadly force. If the officer's life is in danger, for instance, or someone else's life is in danger. You and I could both sit down and come to an agreement there. Apparently we part ways on the police officer shooting at a suspect simply for fleeing the scene.

    It's fine if you believe that our laws should be re-written so that suspects are automatically guilty until proven innocent, and that police should be allowed to act as judge, jury, and executioner. I disagree, however, and would prefer guilt or innocence to be decided as per the methodology of our legal system derived from our Constitution and subsequent court cases thereof.

    Tennessee v Garner, 471 US 1 (1985)

    "The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable... where the officer has probable cause to believe the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm... or there is probable cause to believe he has committed a crime involving infliction or threatened infliction of serious bodily harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape."
    Supreme Court Case Briefs in ... - Google Books



    As I said, it isn't quite as cut and dried as some are making it out to be. The Supreme Court doesn't think it is being "judge jury and executioner" to stop a fleeing felon who is reasonably believed to have committed a violent crime.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-03-09 at 12:31 AM.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    And if he doesn't and simply flees, then he does not represent a threat to the officer. He's innocent until proven guilty. Let the courts decide if he is, in fact, actually guilty. The officer's job is simply to detain the individual fleeing, not to execute him.
    No, he doesn't represent a threat to the office, but he represents a threat to anyone else he may encounter, therefore the need to neutralize that thraet. But, hey, if you're innocent, don't run!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Supreme Court Case Briefs in ... - Google Books



    As I said, it isn't quite as cut and dried as some are making it out to be.
    Re-read what I wrote, brother. "'Under any circumstances', no, as there are plenty of circumstances where the officer should use deadly force. If the officer's life is in danger, for instance, or someone else's life is in danger." (Post #86) The court case you cited agrees with me here:

    "The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so. It is no doubt unfortunate when a suspect who is in sight escapes, but the fact that the police arrive a little late or are a little slower afoot does not always justify killing the suspect. A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects.

    It is not, however, unconstitutional on its face. Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where

    Page 471 U. S. 12

    feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in such circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster."
    Source: TENNESSEE V. GARNER, 471 U. S. 1 (1985) -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez

    Where we apparently disagree is on someone who is suspected of a felony who flees the scene; indeed, the very first line of my quote from Tennessee vs Garner puts that issue to rest - "The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so."

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, he doesn't represent a threat to the office, but he represents a threat to anyone else he may encounter, therefore the need to neutralize that thraet. But, hey, if you're innocent, don't run!
    Not necessarily. Could be a kid with some marijuana, or someone who didn't commit a felony, yet is guilty of some misdemeanor. Or it could be someone who is guilty of nothing.

    We'll let the courts decide, not the police.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Remember kids, if you're not guilty, you have no reason to flee...but you already weren't thinking too clearly when you decided to run from the cops for something as trivial as being stoned and possessing an 1/8 of weed. Oh well. Fight versus flight is a bitch, ain't it?

    Oh, and if you are guilty and have no intentions of letting the cops catch you? Make sure to bring your assault rifles. If they're gonna blame you for the civilians the cops shoot while chasing you (kinda like how you get blamed for them causing accidents in a car chase), you now have every reason to cut loose. What difference does a few more counts of murder make?

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Re-read what I wrote, brother.... Where we apparently disagree is on someone who is suspected of a felony who flees the scene; indeed, the very first line of my quote from Tennessee vs Garner puts that issue to rest - "The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so."
    Okay, did you read this bit carefully?

    Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where
    feasible, some warning has been given.
    If there is probable cause to believe a suspect has committed a crime involving the use or even threat of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used to stop him from escaping if necessary.

    That's all I've been saying. Possibly there has been some miscommunication somewhere.

    G.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Okay, did you read this bit carefully?



    If there is probable cause to believe a suspect has committed a crime involving the use or even threat of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used to stop him from escaping if necessary.

    That's all I've been saying. Possibly there has been some miscommunication somewhere.

    G.
    Ahh, so you believe the same as I do, then? That felonious suspects should not be shot at, but those felonious suspects who represent a danger to the community and/or the officer should be dealt with in whatever way deemed appropriate by the officer at the time. Maybe it was a miscommunication between us somewhere down the line.

    Fortunately for us both, I have the perfect remedy. I thought i read somewhere that you haven't given up cigars yet, right? In that case, here is my solution:

    1. We continue this debate after picking out the finest cigars from your humidor.

    2. We proceed to light our cigars and discuss the matter at hand.

    3. I 'borrow' one of Reverend Hellhound's finest bottles, with the promise that one day I shall repay him. I proceed to drain said bottle of contents. You are certainly welcome to partake.

    4. We come to an agreement or compromise on this particular issue. Either that or we discuss the finer points of cooking barbeque.

    Who says liberals and conservatives can't meet in the middle?
    Last edited by Singularity; 08-04-09 at 01:10 AM.

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