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Thread: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

  1. #61
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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Just pull over and stop.
    The "Just pull over and stop" suggestion is a very standard and very appropriate suggestion but that is what the suspects should do. The issue at hand that we are discussingis not what the suspects should do but what the police should do. It's a question of when is it apropriate to use deadly force.

    Yet your suggestion to the suspects is still good even though missplaced.
    Last edited by F107HyperSabr; 08-02-09 at 03:43 PM.
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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    Dude, it's the city of Chicago, there are people everywhere, police firing at moving vehicles in guaranteed to eventually take out people who aren't involved in the crime.
    Isn't what you say true in any cittyof town for that matter that ramdom shoooting by anyone can take out inocents as well as those who deseve to die.
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Police officers should be allowed to shoot people for fleeing from them. This is a case of "if you haven't done anything wrong", because people who haven't done anything wrong don't run from the police.
    I don't know, devil's advocate here, but I have always wanted to test my driving skills in a situation like being chased by police, kind of like what Jesse James did on his new show, even though I'm legal I'd love to see how long I could hold off, or if I could get away.
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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    Yes, police should not be randomly shooting in populated areas (really, they shouldn't be randomly shooting anywhere). The irresponsibility involved increases with the rate of population, so shooting randomly at a moving car in a place where there are 20,000 people living per square mile is just about as bad as it gets.

    "Shooting randomly" presupposes that bullets are being sprayed around indiscriminately. I'm not going to say it never happens, but there is this esoteric concept known as aimed fire. They actually teach this at police academies, you know: the idea of hitting what you're aiming at, and of not shooting if bystanders are in the line of fire.

    I'm not saying there isn't some risk; I'm just saying the risk is being overstated.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    You don't have to be a bad shot for a shot at a moving car to be considered "random". It would take a world class shot who had aimed very carefully for such a shot to be considered genuinely deliberate.
    I would have to disagree. I can hit moving targets consistently, and I'm definately not "world class".

    At lot of it depends on conditions. If the vehicle is moving directly away from you, it is far easier than if it is moving lateral to your position. Hitting a target whose movement is across your field of fire and rapid, requires proper lead, which is tricky and takes considerable practice...hitting one moving directly away from you (or very close to "directly away") is not that much harder than a stationary target.

    Weapon makes a difference. I've engaged living moving "targets" with a handgun; I would have preferred a rifle or shotgun but sometimes you make do with what is on hand.

    Perps frequently shoot back at you as they are running away. Sometimes they do this running sort of sideways; or running backwards, or even shooting blind over their shoulder. If I can drop him without any bystanders in the line of fire, should I not do so? He is, after all, the one endangering the public since he IS "spraying bullets everywhere."

    Almost anytime the police engage any perp with gunfire, there is some risk to bystanders. This is why you train to shoot straight and to be aware of who is in your line of fire.

    Again, I'm just saying that the risks to bystanders are being overstated a bit by some.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Shooting at a fleeing suspect implies that the suspect is automatically guilty under the law, therefore the shooting is justified. Here in the United States, guilt or innocence isn't determined by the police. It's determined in a court of law. Police should not be allowed to shoot at fleeing suspects.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    Yes, police should not be randomly shooting in populated areas (really, they shouldn't be randomly shooting anywhere). The irresponsibility involved increases with the rate of population, so shooting randomly at a moving car in a place where there are 20,000 people living per square mile is just about as bad as it gets.
    The message you then send the criminal, is that he can use civilians as human shields and there's nothing you're going to do about it. Ultimately, you've provided him with one more chance to continue to be a criminal and the deterrance no longer exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Shooting at a fleeing suspect implies that the suspect is automatically guilty under the law, therefore the shooting is justified. Here in the United States, guilt or innocence isn't determined by the police. It's determined in a court of law. Police should not be allowed to shoot at fleeing suspects.
    If they don't run, they won't get shot. Problem solved!
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If they don't run, they won't get shot. Problem solved!
    Again, it isn't up to the police to determine guilt or innocence. If the police are authorized to shoot at someone suspected to be guilty, then we are authorizing our police to be judge, jury, and executioners. No thanks.

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    Re: Policy Would Allow Cops To Shoot At Fleeing Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Again, it isn't up to the police to determine guilt or innocence. If the police are authorized to shoot at someone suspected to be guilty, then we are authorizing our police to be judge, jury, and executioners. No thanks.
    Not quite.

    We are authorizing police that IF
    1. there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a serious violent felony
    2. the suspect is attempting to flee
    3. there is no other viable alternative allowing for stopping the suspect except the use of lethal force...and
    4. there is probable cause to believe the suspects' escape would put the community at substantial risk...

    THEN and only then may they fire, IF they have a clear shot without endangering bystanders.

    When fired on, the perp may cease movement and surrender. The perp may be hit and only wounded, and live to stand trial.

    "Judge jury and executioner" is an overstatement.

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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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