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Thread: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Well, what can I say to that? You are indeed selfish, but at least you admit it.
    I'm not selfish. I just recognize that even if I had enough compassion to care about seven billion human beings, I could never have enough power to care for them. I care about my family and my friends, and I do what I can to help them. I care about my nation, too... and I do what little I can to help them, but I can't even claim to be delaying the inevitable. I reserve my compassion for those people whose lives I can meaningfully benefit, and those people whose benefit I can meaningfully appreciate.

    I am admittedly a tribalist and a nationalist, but I am not an individualist. If you want to call me "selfish" for not caring about the lives of people I've never met, never will meet, and have nothing in common with aside from our common species, then I'd argue that you are stretching the word beyond any sensible definition.

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I'm not selfish. I just recognize that even if I had enough compassion to care about seven billion human beings, I could never have enough power to care for them. I care about my family and my friends, and I do what I can to help them. I care about my nation, too... and I do what little I can to help them, but I can't even claim to be delaying the inevitable. I reserve my compassion for those people whose lives I can meaningfully benefit, and those people whose benefit I can meaningfully appreciate.

    I am admittedly a tribalist and a nationalist, but I am not an individualist. If you want to call me "selfish" for not caring about the lives of people I've never met, never will meet, and have nothing in common with aside from our common species, then I'd argue that you are stretching the word beyond any sensible definition.
    Nice try, but you are selfish. You seek gratification in your actions. To put it simply, and as mild as I can put it, you lack empathy. That is just a fact, whether you want to accept it or not. Which is fine I guess, something we have to accept as a society that not everyone will be as evolved. As long as there is no cure for this mental illness, we have to just learn to live with it.

    But I do congrats and tip my hat to you. You do join the ranks of serial killers and NAZI death camp guards in that you all share one very simple basic component of the human brain; you lack empathy for your fellow humans. Quite a crowd there, enjoy.

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Nice try, but you are selfish. You seek gratification in your actions. .
    But isnt that the basis for any action?

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I'm not selfish. I just recognize that even if I had enough compassion to care about seven billion human beings, I could never have enough power to care for them. I care about my family and my friends, and I do what I can to help them. I care about my nation, too... and I do what little I can to help them, but I can't even claim to be delaying the inevitable. I reserve my compassion for those people whose lives I can meaningfully benefit, and those people whose benefit I can meaningfully appreciate.

    I am admittedly a tribalist and a nationalist, but I am not an individualist. If you want to call me "selfish" for not caring about the lives of people I've never met, never will meet, and have nothing in common with aside from our common species, then I'd argue that you are stretching the word beyond any sensible definition.
    Seems like someone needs to take some extasy and watch Horton Hears a Who.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjxEacJwGl0&feature=fvw"]YouTube - Jim Carrey - Horton Hears a Who[/ame]

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Nice try, but you are selfish. You seek gratification in your actions.
    And how is that any different from your own smug self-righteousness in supporting "humanitarian" programs in Africa that help prop up the dictatorial regimes that are committing the atrocities, undermine the locals' ability to develop their own economy, and allow an already starving and disease-ridden population to continue reproducing?

    Why do you stick your nose in other countries' business, when even a cursory reading of history and current events will show you that it only provokes further crackdowns and leads to harsher restrictions and more deaths among the people you claim to be "supporting"?

    Could it be that you do these things to soothe your bleeding liberal heart and salve your wounded conscience? To assuage your guilt that you have enjoyed the greatest prosperity of any nation in human history, while others are still enduring the greatest misery? In other words, to make yourself feel better regardless of the consequences for others?

    Don't presume to lecture me about trying to make this world a better place. While you're crying over the nameless, faceless masses I'm trying to make the world a better place for the people I see every day, the people to whom I owe a profound moral debt for the world I have been privileged enough to live in.

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Why? I understand your personal affinity for the Uighurs, but why should the rest of the world concern itself? Let the Chinese govern their own affairs, and if the Uighurs should either win independence or be made extinct, so be it.
    My personal affinity? The hell does that even mean?

    Are you telling me, because death is a natural process, we may aswell allow the killing of a certain ethnic people in the masses? How does your brain work? Will you deny the holocaust next or tell me saving Jews from the genocide in WW2 shouldnt have been a priority?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Korimyr, please do not imply that I'm a bleeding heart liberal. I believe in sensible policy and also don't believe in interfering with the affairs of another nation.

    I realize your life has been hard and people have done things to you that make others appear selfish, and I also understand that we can't get involved in the affairs of other countries just because we don't like what we see.

    By that same token, we can still condemn it, even if we can't do anything about it. I condemn China's actions, even though I was in the middle of it one day and had no power to do anything about it. That's different, though, than remaining completely apathetic.

    I also understand that you don't have the mental energy to invest in every bad thing that is happening around the world. Neither do I... but in at least taking the time to learn about what is happening, you will have a better capacity to recognize similar circumstances if it starts to take place in your part of the world.

    Furthermore, the U.S. is also engaged in imperialism in the Middle East, something directly connected to your participation in democracy. If you don't care, then no one will care for your country if it one day becomes weak and vulnerable.

    You may think death is an end to a means, but to most people, what happens in between matters a lot.

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    My personal affinity? The hell does that even mean?
    I mean that because the Uighurs are a Turkic people you might feel you have more reason to be concerned for their well-being than I do. I'm sorry if this was presumptuous of me or if I've given offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Are you telling me, because death is a natural process, we may aswell allow the killing of a certain ethnic people in the masses?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    How does your brain work? Will you deny the holocaust next or tell me saving Jews from the genocide in WW2 shouldnt have been a priority?
    No, I will not deny the Holocaust. The historical record is clear on this matter.

    But your question seems to include an implied assumption that saving Jews from genocide at the hands of the Nazi regime in World War 2 was a priority of the Allies. It was not. It was an afterthought, and a means to justify more thoroughly humiliating and dominating Germany after the war in order for the victorious Allies to more effectively exploit them. Even the welfare of the Jews after the Holocaust was an afterthought, as Britain did not cede them the land that became Israel until years afterward when they decided that Jewish Holocaust survivors both in Britain and in their Palestinian colonies were inconvenient. American support of Israel did not begin until decades later.

    The Jews did not survive World War 2 because of the Allies' humanitarian interests in saving them. They survived because the Nazis were merely the latest in a long line of people determined to enslave and/or exterminate them, and because they are a tough and resilient people. I admire the Hell out of the Jewish people.

    You will notice that we did not pursue Japanese war criminals with the same vigor, nor did we show even a small measure of the same concern for their Chinese and Korean victims as we did for-- some of-- the victims of the Nazi regime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Korimyr, please do not imply that I'm a bleeding heart liberal. I believe in sensible policy and also don't believe in interfering with the affairs of another nation.
    I did not intend to. While I do not agree with you, I respect your position on this matter and your unique perspective on it, given your direct experience living in China and dealing with the Chinese government. Unlike the other person I responded to, I did not take your accusation of selfishness as an attempt at personal insult and I hope that my direct reply to you was taken as an attempt at clarification of my moral and political position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I realize your life has been hard and people have done things to you that make others appear selfish, and I also understand that we can't get involved in the affairs of other countries just because we don't like what we see.
    I'm not opposed to active intervention in other nations' business. My only concern is that any such intervention needs to be carried out with clear and measurable objectives, and that those objectives can be reasonably accomplished without compromising our own interests. Aside from the point that I do not see any benefit in attempting to protect the Uighurs, I do not see any means by which we could effectively do so and I am concerned that any attempt to do so would harm our relationship with China which is a serious economic and military power and with whom our relationship is essential to our own economic well-being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    By that same token, we can still condemn it, even if we can't do anything about it. I condemn China's actions, even though I was in the middle of it one day and had no power to do anything about it. That's different, though, than remaining completely apathetic.
    I do not see any difference between futile protest and complete inaction, except that futile protest wastes energy. And I do not honestly understand why I should be anything but completely apathetic to the fate of people I have no connection to. I might lament the loss of their artistic and literary traditions and their unique genetic makeup, but seeing as these things are highly unlikely to ever be of benefit to my own people, I am not terribly concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Furthermore, the U.S. is also engaged in imperialism in the Middle East, something directly connected to your participation in democracy. If you don't care, then no one will care for your country if it one day becomes weak and vulnerable.
    I have attempted, within my means, to oppose our imperalistic efforts in the Middle East because I do not see any profit in them.

    And I do not share your assumption that others will care about my nation when it becomes weak and vulnerable. They will do as my nation has done, and as every powerful nation has done, and they will either exploit our weakness for their own gain or they will crush us into dust in order to lay claim to our land and our natural resources. This will occur whether we show compassion or not, and I can already see the vultures circling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    You may think death is an end to a means, but to most people, what happens in between matters a lot.
    I think it matters, too. I just don't share your moral priorities. And I might point out that it's very useful that most people are concerned with what happens to distant strangers-- because it provides convenient justification for whatever intervention the ruling elite intend to pursue for their own purposes. There's a reason we used military force in Iraq and Kosovo while making nothing but token sounds of protest at Rwanda, Darfur, and Georgia.

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I did not intend to. While I do not agree with you, I respect your position on this matter and your unique perspective on it, given your direct experience living in China and dealing with the Chinese government. Unlike the other person I responded to, I did not take your accusation of selfishness as an attempt at personal insult and I hope that my direct reply to you was taken as an attempt at clarification of my moral and political position.

    I'm not opposed to active intervention in other nations' business. My only concern is that any such intervention needs to be carried out with clear and measurable objectives, and that those objectives can be reasonably accomplished without compromising our own interests. Aside from the point that I do not see any benefit in attempting to protect the Uighurs, I do not see any means by which we could effectively do so and I am concerned that any attempt to do so would harm our relationship with China which is a serious economic and military power and with whom our relationship is essential to our own economic well-being.

    I do not see any difference between futile protest and complete inaction, except that futile protest wastes energy. And I do not honestly understand why I should be anything but completely apathetic to the fate of people I have no connection to. I might lament the loss of their artistic and literary traditions and their unique genetic makeup, but seeing as these things are highly unlikely to ever be of benefit to my own people, I am not terribly concerned.

    I have attempted, within my means, to oppose our imperalistic efforts in the Middle East because I do not see any profit in them.

    And I do not share your assumption that others will care about my nation when it becomes weak and vulnerable. They will do as my nation has done, and as every powerful nation has done, and they will either exploit our weakness for their own gain or they will crush us into dust in order to lay claim to our land and our natural resources. This will occur whether we show compassion or not, and I can already see the vultures circling.

    I think it matters, too. I just don't share your moral priorities. And I might point out that it's very useful that most people are concerned with what happens to distant strangers-- because it provides convenient justification for whatever intervention the ruling elite intend to pursue for their own purposes. There's a reason we used military force in Iraq and Kosovo while making nothing but token sounds of protest at Rwanda, Darfur, and Georgia.
    I find myself having not much to add. I don't agree with you even though I respect you. I consider myself to be a realist but when I read your posts I feel it puts my level of realism to shame. I guess my problem is that I always expect more from humanity but in the end am simply disappointed. I try my best to accept what goes in the world, but in the end my lone voice is rather powerless.

    I do believe in the virtues of changing what immediately surrounds me, and as a result creating some sort of butterfly effect, however minute. In the end, it is all just anarchy though.

    I also agree that all interventions past and present have other agendas at their core, and nothing is just for the "common good". I guess the situation in China particularly angered me, having seen it with my own eyes, and I placed that cause at a level of particular importance... when really, to any outsider, it is just one more injustice in a sea of many that we have virtually no control over.

    The reason why I reacted so strongly to your apparent apathy was that, even in our own countries, people's inaction and unwillingness to care has resulted in an erosion of their own quality of life, their freedoms, their rights, and even their own compassion for their neighbours. Since you've let me know that you've actually protested the war, my views about you have changed.

    I'm left with this feeling that if humans settle for what they've always had, then they'll always get what they've always gotten. So, people's apathy means that we are just letting ourselves come full circle. Our ancestors fought for humanitarian standards, now we are just letting ourselves slip back into iron grips again. History really is a circle, isn't it?
    Last edited by Orion; 08-02-09 at 07:36 AM.

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    Re: China Genocide - Uighur leader says 10,000 missing

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I mean that because the Uighurs are a Turkic people you might feel you have more reason to be concerned for their well-being than I do. I'm sorry if this was presumptuous of me or if I've given offense.
    I couldnt care if they where yellow or green. They might be Turkic but apart from the fact that somewhere down the line we may have shared the same ancestry, it doesnt make a difference to me what they are. Im ethnically Turkish, and on the point, since the Ottoman empire i doubt theres very much Turkic left with us. Either way, race isnt an issue here. I care because they are humans and they are facing an injustice, and that nobody, Jew or otherwise, deserves to be treated and judged based on, as you rightfully say, "race" which is of no importance.

    Yes.
    Then your a very cold, evil person. Thats what i would have said if i didnt know you as a poster on these forums. What makes you say this i do not know but its unforgivable.

    No, I will not deny the Holocaust. The historical record is clear on this matter.

    But your question seems to include an implied assumption that saving Jews from genocide at the hands of the Nazi regime in World War 2 was a priority of the Allies. It was not. It was an afterthought, and a means to justify more thoroughly humiliating and dominating Germany after the war in order for the victorious Allies to more effectively exploit them. Even the welfare of the Jews after the Holocaust was an afterthought, as Britain did not cede them the land that became Israel until years afterward when they decided that Jewish Holocaust survivors both in Britain and in their Palestinian colonies were inconvenient. American support of Israel did not begin until decades later.
    Not that there mass killing, gas chambers and torture camps botheres you in any measurable way.


    You will notice that we did not pursue Japanese war criminals with the same vigor, nor did we show even a small measure of the same concern for their Chinese and Korean victims as we did for-- some of-- the victims of the Nazi regime.
    Then we are in the wrong.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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