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Seven NC men charged as international "jihad" group

Tucker Case said:
It still doesn't make any sense.

First how does that possibly relate to the common sense statement that not all terrorists are muslim?

Are you saying all terrorists are muslim? That being a non-muslim means you can't be a terrorist?

I just can't see how it relates.

Second, the sentence structure still doesn't make any sense. I gave an example of the odd verb usage, but I knew that wasn't "are" and that it should be "or". The rest still doesn't make any sense.

Let me explain by breaking it down:

"...can you point to any single incidence of violence, attack, or war against non-Muslims or Muslims alike anywhere in the world and during any period of time..."

From this, you look like you are asking about any act of violence, attack or war perpetrated against any people, anywhere, ever in history.


"...when the Muslims involved..."

See, the part above basically states any attack against any people during any time any where. This would include native american wars in teh past. Of course in such a case muslims would not be involved. So I don;t get the lack of agreement.



Terrorism is a very, very new concept. It did not exist until the 20th century. Targetting civilians was the norm for all people before that time, and was the norm for the US as recently as Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to name a couple of trifling incidents.

Terrorism could not have been preached in the Koran or by Muhammad because the concept didn't even exist.



Again, a very recent creation, and not exactly something religiously adhered to by even the US today. I doubt I can accurately show a single instance of any group abiding by tehse conventions without incident, let alone a group that wasn't a signatory of that treaty (i.e. a religion)

So the question makes no sense. It asks questions that are unanswerable. In fact, it is a loaded question, which is a logical fallacy, because it can't be answered for any group of people based on religious reasons. You cannot cite a single example of christians, Atheists, Jews, hindus, Pagans or satanists abiding by the geneva conventions.
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What? I'm sorry but you don't make sense. Try again!
 
Ikari said:
Well ****, that sounds pretty reasonable. I'll take it. You sound like you don't like that, what would you do? Have random police inspections? Random wire tapping?
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Patriot Act sounds pretty good to me.
 
Laila said:
Nice story but that does not refute my point
I can assume alot of things but you have no evidence.
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Your point was semantics. It was absurd and you are playing games.

Suicide is forbidden in the Qu'ran. End of. There is no debating what is in the Qu'ran

Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever

My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him

No wiggle room here. No if or buts. SUICIDE IS FORBIDDEN.
Find a Priest crazy enough and he can also sanction murder, does not mean the religion itself teaches it.
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Yeah right:

"He who commits suicide kills himself for his own benefit, while he who commits martyrdom sacrifices himself for the sake of his religion and his nation. While someone who commits suicide has lost hope with himself and with the spirit of Allah, the Mujahid is full of hope with regard to Allah's spirit and mercy. He fights his enemy and the enemy of Allah with this new weapon, which destiny has put in the hands of the weak, so that they would fight against the evil of the strong and arrogant. The Mujahid becomes a 'human bomb' that blows up at a specific place and time, in the midst of the enemies of Allah and the homeland, leaving them helpless in the face of the brave Shahid who... sold his soul to Allah, and sought the Shahada [Martyrdom] for the sake of Allah."

Sheik Qaradhawi added that these operations are allowed even when the casualties are civilians: "Israeli society is militaristic in nature. Both men and women serve in the army and can be drafted at any moment. [On the other hand] if a child or an elderly is killed in such an operation, he is not killed on purpose, but by mistake, and as a result of military necessity. Necessity justifies the forbidden."[6]

--Sheik Al-Qaradhawi

Debating the Religious, Political and Moral Legitimacy of Suicide Bombings Part 1: The Debate over Religious Legitimacy

MEMRI: Inquiry and Analysis - No. 53

No damn wiggle room! Please...:mrgreen:
 
Turbeaux said:
We are talking fall and winter of 2001 and spring of 2002. It was in the news maybe not where you guys are, but it was in the news big time in the USA. Nevertheless, you must be nuts if you think I'm going to go back to 2001 to search for documentation that you just will scoff at no matter what!

Nevertheless, are you denying that the Islamic world was rallying around the Hezbos and Hamas terrorist groups when they were at war against Israel and not protesting in the streets all over the world against Israel? If you are going to deny it, I’m going to ask what planet you live on?

Furthermore with respect to your poll regarding suicide/homicide attacks, it is obviously invalid and absurd. Change the question to do you support suicide/homicide attacks against American kafirs in Iraq and Afghanistan and Jewish kafirs in Israel, and I suspect you will see nearly 100 percent support.

Nevertheless, that poll is still very alarming in its own right because look at all the Muslims that approve of homicide/suicide attacks regardless even when against Muslim civilians.

With respect to the USA Today Poll, it is also absurd. As if Muslims are going to cut his or her own throats and confess to pollsters who are completely ignorant of Islam the real purpose of the global jihad and their reason for migrating to the USA. That would be like a CIA agent living in Pakistan confessing his real intentions for being in Pakistan to a pollster. Not to mention it is conducted on a false understanding of Islam.

And your last BBC Poll is too ridiculous and absurd to even comment on. You can tell by the naive nature of the poll that it isn’t worth the paper it is going to be printed on. In any event, because the practice of taqiyya (deception) is so prevalent in the Islamic world and especially with regards to Muslims living in the west, I take all polls of Muslims with a grain of salt. Not to mention that I wouldn’t be surprised if the Wahhabi Lobby paid for that poll.

The notion that Muslims when confronted by kafirs wouldn’t fulfill their obligation to lie is ludicrous. Nonetheless, that is the state of ignorance we have to live with in the West today.

Thus, you miserably fail! Try again.
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What I find interesting is you spend your entire post attacking Laila's sources, all based on your own opinion, devoid of facts. And you failed to answer her question. Please source your 99% figure that you stated was support in the Muslim world for 9/11. Let's see if YOUR source is valid or ridiculous.
 
TheNextEra said:
How did you enjoy shooting a 65 year old man then?

EDIT: Without editing my original comment I will withdrawal it since age is not a matter with Iman in some sects.
Some sect require age.
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What makes you think he was 65? Just being a smartass for no reason?
 
Laila said:
Nice story but that does not refute my point
I can assume alot of things but you have no evidence.

Suicide is forbidden in the Qu'ran. End of. There is no debating what is in the Qu'ran

Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever

My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him

No wiggle room here. No if or buts. SUICIDE IS FORBIDDEN.
Find a Priest crazy enough and he can also sanction murder, does not mean the religion itself teaches it.
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Is this more of the, "the terrorists aren't really Muslims", blather?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
What I find interesting is you spend your entire post attacking Laila's sources, all based on your own opinion, devoid of facts. And you failed to answer her question. Please source your 99% figure that you stated was support in the Muslim world for 9/11. Let's see if YOUR source is valid or ridiculous.
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He knows he is lying.
You can rarely get 9 out of 10 people to agree on something most of the time, so to say that occured with a billion people is just ridiculous.
 
apdst said:
Is this more of the, "the terrorists aren't really Muslims", blather?
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You are not refuting my point using facts.
 
apdst said:
I'm asking if you're taking that same apologist line.
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Why would i?
And no, i do not see them as Muslims but i do not have the authority or right to say who is and isn't a Muslim in the eyes of God, i can only judge through the texts.
I do not approve of people like you blaming Islam and the Qu'ran or holding it responsible for what these people do.

It demonstrates to me people are more willing to attack Islam than hold these individuals to account
 
Since the beginning of time, folks have killed because of their beliefs or because of religion. Since not everyone of these religions kill, we must conclude that it is not the religion that is the problem but some of those that interpret that religion.
 
Laila said:
I do not approve of people like you blaming Islam and the Qu'ran or holding it responsible for what these people do.
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You're incorrect, ma'am. I've never blamed Islam, nor the Koran for the actions of these terrorists. Unless you can find some actual statements of mine that suggest such, you oughta take that comment back and admit your mistake.
 
apdst said:
You're incorrect, ma'am. I've never blamed Islam, nor the Koran for the actions of these terrorists. Unless you can find some actual statements of mine that suggest such, you oughta take that comment back and admit your mistake.
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Then i'll hold you to your word and apologise if i did make such a mistake
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Since the beginning of time, folks have killed because of their beliefs or because of religion. Since not everyone of these religions kill, we must conclude that it is not the religion that is the problem but some of those that interpret that religion.
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That's exactly right. The people I hold responsible are the other 99% of Muslims who aren't terrorists and want to try to get along for sitting on their laurels while a faction perverts their religion.
 
apdst said:
That's exactly right. The people I hold responsible are the other 99% of Muslims who aren't terrorists and want to try to get along for sitting on their laurels while a faction perverts their religion.
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Oh my.
And my question comes.
I need to make a tally on how many times i have asked this question, really. It must be dozens by now.

What do you expect Moderate Muslims to do?
I am not about to don a hat and gun and go fighting.
If the United States and UK cannot destroy the extremists, how do you suggest Muslims with no military experience achieve this goal?
I believe i am doing a good enough job - same with thousands of other Muslims by ensuring no one inside my community or family turn to extremism, actively helping the police

I refuse to be held responsible for the actions of these barbaric idiots just because they share the same religion as me. It is hardly fair on me to be held responsible for the actions of another person
 
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apdst said:
That's exactly right. The people I hold responsible are the other 99% of Muslims who aren't terrorists and want to try to get along for sitting on their laurels while a faction perverts their religion.
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Then you must hold all Christians responsible for the vile acts of Fred Phelps and his group. And all Mormons are responsible for some of the child abuse that comes from some of the more fundamentalist sects. And I suppose all Jews are responsible for those that want to kill all Muslims. Shall I go on? See where this gets us? You know who is responsible for the Muslims who kill in the name of Islam? Those Muslims who killed in the name of Islam. That's it. I would like to see the more moderate Muslims speak out against the radicals...heck I'd like to see moderates of every group speak out against the extremist of their group...liberals, conservatives, Christians, Muslims, etc... But they are not responsible for the acts of those extremists.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I would like to see the more moderate Muslims speak out against the radicals...heck I'd like to see moderates of every group speak out against the extremist of their group...liberals, conservatives, Christians, Muslims, etc... But they are not responsible for the acts of those extremists.
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As would I and it has been increasing alot over the last few years in UK.

Infact just last week a case occured in which a terrorist was convicted. He had the ability to kill hundreds, had suicide vests and everything. Tapes set out and he was British born (convert) ... the police and MI5 had no idea he existed .... until he was shopped by the local Mosque who approached the police and helped him be caught. The police did praise saying that people would have been killed if they did not get that help from the Muslim community.
 
Laila said:
What do you expect Moderate Muslims to do?
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One would think that the Muslim community, worldwide, would be as outraged--if not more--over terrorists murdering innocent people in the name of Allah as they were over a few cartoons. I'm just wondering why they ready to kill people and burn down buildings because of a few cartoons but won't direct that same violence towards people that are disgracing Islam.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Then you must hold all Christians responsible for the vile acts of Fred Phelps and his group. .
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I do hold them responsible. Two of my brothers and I left a Neo-Nazi type ****er bleeding in a road ditch one time and it was ok by most, because, well he's a white boy Neo-Nazi. Doing that to an Islamist would land us in jail for hate crimes. See what I mean?
 
apdst said:
One would think that the Muslim community, worldwide, would be as outraged--if not more--over terrorists murdering innocent people in the name of Allah as they were over a few cartoons. I'm just wondering why they ready to kill people and burn down buildings because of a few cartoons but won't direct that same violence towards people that are disgracing Islam.
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Yes the cartoon protests were stupid but to think that Muslims do not condemn and are not outraged by terrorism is simply false.
 
apdst said:
I do hold them responsible. Two of my brothers and I left a Neo-Nazi type ****er bleeding in a road ditch one time and it was ok by most, because, well he's a white boy Neo-Nazi. Doing that to an Islamist would land us in jail for hate crimes. See what I mean?
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:shock:

Did he die if he were bleeding?
 
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