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Thread: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That was not my point.
    The protesters share your view (the other country should not order it around) because the only country that gave any orders is America.
    Foreign aid is a show of support and all, but it doesn't buy Obama the ability to 'demand' stuff from Israel, Israel is a sovereign nation, and it is an ally of the US, not a puppet state.
    What? Of course you can demand things from other nations. And more or less all leaders of all nations throughout all history always have. You can definitely demand things when you are footing the bills and taking the heat for . . . absolutely nothing.

    Demanding things from other nations is a staple feature of international politics.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-30-09 at 02:28 AM.

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Don't we get petroleum from Egypt? Or some kind of necessity.

    Please remind me again just exactly what Israel does for the US. In my old age, it seems to have slipped my mind.

    Was it that Israel gives us a launching pad to shoot rockets at Egypt if they don't give us their oil? Damned if I can remember.

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Don't we get petroleum from Egypt? Or some kind of necessity.

    Please remind me again just exactly what Israel does for the US. In my old age, it seems to have slipped my mind.

    Was it that Israel gives us a launching pad to shoot rockets at Egypt if they don't give us their oil? Damned if I can remember.
    Israel does almost nothing for the United States nowadays. Middle Eastern countries sell us their oil willingly.

    They were a Middle Eastern satellite nation of sorts during the Cold War.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-30-09 at 02:31 AM.

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    What? Of course you can demand things from other nations. And more or less all leaders of all nations throughout all history always have. You can definitely demand things when you are footing the bills and taking the heat for . . . absolutely nothing.

    Demanding things from other nations is a staple feature of international politics.
    Demanding is fine when it is used in the polite diplomatic way, not when Obama gets up and says "you must do this and this", this is a violation of Israel's sovereignty, which is why it has been ignored.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America
    Don't we get petroleum from Egypt? Or some kind of necessity.

    Please remind me again just exactly what Israel does for the US. In my old age, it seems to have slipped my mind.

    Was it that Israel gives us a launching pad to shoot rockets at Egypt if they don't give us their oil? Damned if I can remember.
    Israel doesn't need to do anything for the US.
    Its relationship with the US is one of an alliance.
    The US foreign aid going to Israel has its target, and it is not a form of trade, or whatever you're trying to imply that it is.

    I also find it weird that you're thinking that the foreign aid to Egypt is some form of a trade, your mind works in such a simplistic way.
    Do you honestly think that the US gives Egypt 1.5 billion USD per year just to get petroleum?
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Demanding is fine when it is used in the polite diplomatic way, not when Obama gets up and says "you must do this and this", this is a violation of Israel's sovereignty, which is why it has been ignored.
    Except this is not a violation of their sovereignty. First off we should acknowledge, as well as Israel, that close ties the past 40+ years have not come without a cost to the U.S. We faced serious oil embargoes stemming from the Yom Kippur war, to almost universal hatred towards us throughout the region. The Israel-Palestinian conflict is the number one issue that inflames hatred and distrust towards the U.S. Keep in mind that the Middle East itself constitutes outside of Israel's 7 million 15 other nations (including Iran and Turkey) that have a population of over 330 million, not including North Africa and South Asia. The cold war is over, has been since 1991. What remains is simply a mutual friendship, as well as a moral support that most Americans agree with.

    But again, this friendship has been costly to us not just in terms of aid spent, but in lives, diplomacy, and reputation. Israel depends upon us alone to be able to forge a lasting peace agreement, with that acknowledgment comes an acceptance that the U.S. does have to set conditions for which agreements can proceed. Right now the number one issue is Israel's expansion into disputed territories. Let's be clear about this, these expansions are nothing more than a means by the government to grab land ahead of an agreement, or at the least to use as a bargaining chip.

    You one simple little thing we could do to make ourselves safe from terrorists? Honestly engage this conflict and find a resolution. Funny thing, people tend to want to kill you less when they like you more. Strange isn't it?

    Either Israel can abide by the conditions set, or they can seek a new partner. Simple as that.

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Either Israel can abide by the conditions set, or they can seek a new partner. Simple as that.
    Israel has no other partner similar to US.
    I don't think Israelis would ever allow US to drift apart from them, US is their lifeline ... literally into the international stage


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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Except this is not a violation of their sovereignty. First off we should acknowledge, as well as Israel, that close ties the past 40+ years have not come without a cost to the U.S. We faced serious oil embargoes stemming from the Yom Kippur war, to almost universal hatred towards us throughout the region. The Israel-Palestinian conflict is the number one issue that inflames hatred and distrust towards the U.S. Keep in mind that the Middle East itself constitutes outside of Israel's 7 million 15 other nations (including Iran and Turkey) that have a population of over 330 million, not including North Africa and South Asia. The cold war is over, has been since 1991. What remains is simply a mutual friendship, as well as a moral support that most Americans agree with.

    But again, this friendship has been costly to us not just in terms of aid spent, but in lives, diplomacy, and reputation. Israel depends upon us alone to be able to forge a lasting peace agreement, with that acknowledgment comes an acceptance that the U.S. does have to set conditions for which agreements can proceed. Right now the number one issue is Israel's expansion into disputed territories. Let's be clear about this, these expansions are nothing more than a means by the government to grab land ahead of an agreement, or at the least to use as a bargaining chip.

    You one simple little thing we could do to make ourselves safe from terrorists? Honestly engage this conflict and find a resolution. Funny thing, people tend to want to kill you less when they like you more. Strange isn't it?

    Either Israel can abide by the conditions set, or they can seek a new partner. Simple as that.
    If the price set for people liking you is to share in their insane hatred for a small minority, you have become little more than their whore.


    I'm rather glad the U.S. does not adopt this European approach, myself.
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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    We faced serious oil embargoes stemming from the Yom Kippur war
    So you're now blaming Israel for the Yom Kippur war?
    Seriously?
    You should be saying a total different thing, something like "the Muslim nations have decided to pull an oil embargo on us right after they've invaded Israel during the Jewish sacred day."
    That would be way more correct.
    The Israel-Palestinian conflict is the number one issue that inflames hatred and distrust towards the U.S.
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
    You're getting carried away buddy, you're acting like the Iranian regime now, blaming Israel for your own problems.
    What remains is simply a mutual friendship, as well as a moral support that most Americans agree with.
    Obama chose to describe it in a better way.
    "America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied."
    But again, this friendship has been costly to us not just in terms of aid spent
    The foreign aid deal with Israel was signed so the money would go directly to the IDF and that Israel would only be able to use it to buy weapons and technologies from the United States, that way, returning a lot of the money to the US.
    But I'm sure you've already knew this.
    but in lives
    What lives?
    diplomacy, and reputation
    That would be entirely the fault of the ones who cut ties with you and see you in a different light just because you're allied with Israel.
    I'd remind you though that most of those people see you guys as the Big Satan and us as the Small Satan, and not the other way.
    Should Israel complain for the damage done to its reputation because of the US? Of course not.
    Israel appreciates its alliance with the United States.
    Right now the number one issue is Israel's expansion into disputed territories.
    Number one in what?
    The number one overrated issue?
    Let's be clear about this, these expansions are nothing more than a means by the government to grab land ahead of an agreement, or at the least to use as a bargaining chip.
    Whatever these expansions are they would be settled in a final peace agreement, not just like that out of the blue.
    Either Israel can abide by the conditions set, or they can seek a new partner. Simple as that.
    That's not what Obama's administration said.
    Simple as that.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    So you're now blaming Israel for the Yom Kippur war?
    No, not at all. But this is a significant point in history. Ask a county like Chile, or whatever nation whether they faced an embargo, odds are they were not supplying arms to Israel during this war. I am not even saying I disagree with the policy then of supplying Israel with arms, but merely pointing out that our friendship even then did come at a cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
    You're getting carried away buddy, you're acting like the Iranian regime now, blaming Israel for your own problems.
    The Israel-Palestinian conflict is the number one issue that inflames hatred and distrust towards the U.S. - Again, this is a simple fact. I am sorry if you are either not aware of this, or chose to selectively ignore this. Arguing this is like arguing the moon does not exist. Ask any given scholar, author, journalist, researcher, etc.. knowledgeable about this subject and they will tell you the same thing. I really do not know what to say to a comment like this other than to ask if you have bothered to turn on a TV the past 20 years. The only other primary issue that fueled someone like Bin Laden's hatred was our continued basing of soldiers in Saudi Arabia (breaking an agreement made in 1991 BTW). But this was an issue that was more particular to Saudis, but what inflamed Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Algerians, etc.. has always been the continued conflict in Palestine and the U.S. preferential treatment towards Israel.

    Question, do you know what people throughout the region (aside from Israel) call Israel's day of Independence? Day of the Catastrophe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    The foreign aid deal with Israel was signed so the money would go directly to the IDF and that Israel would only be able to use it to buy weapons and technologies from the United States, that way, returning a lot of the money to the US.
    We have given close to $110 billion dollars in aid, most of which are grants, not loans......But I'm sure you've already knew this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    What lives?
    Again, just stating a fact. Right or wrong, terrorism directed at the U.S. since the 1970s have all been traced to this singular issue. Sure it is a possibility had a peaceful solution in 1978 that was comprehensive to the region could still have produced another excuse, but what we know and have to go on is simple; Hijackings, kidnappings, assassination, bombings, etc.. directed at the U.S. by these different groups have all had one singular root issue with us. Whether it was Marxist Palestinians or Fundamentalist Islamists has made no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That would be entirely the fault of the ones who cut ties with you and see you in a different light just because you're allied with Israel.
    I'd remind you though that most of those people see you guys as the Big Satan and us as the Small Satan, and not the other way.
    At this point the discussion just has no point, you really need a better education on this topic. I don't honestly mean to sound insulting, but this is a truly ignorant statement void of zero facts. It simply is just NOT how the Middle East works. I would suggest a start would be either read Thomas Friedman's writings, or check out online PBS Frontline episodes on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Number one in what?
    The number one overrated issue?
    <sigh> Well it is nice to know you are capable of seeing this issue in an unbiased manner. Sorry for the sarcasm, but right now THIS is the number one issue that the Palestinians are concerned with, and have been for quite some time. Kind of relates to the whole contentious issue with "Right of return"...do look this up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Whatever these expansions are they would be settled in a final peace agreement, not just like that out of the blue.
    That's not what Obama's administration said.
    Well I guess the President has to be more diplomatic, good for him. I don't. You are missing the circular issue, as long as the expansions continue there will be no settlement because there will be no negotiations. It is a completely reasonable and understandable request to make on Israel's part.

    There is a book I have, Six Days of War by Michael Oren. It details the stalling and delaying tactics Israel used in 1967 to complete their seizure of the Golan Heights before a U.N. ceasefire came into effect. Israel for all intents and purposes is repeating this tactic. They are right now being as equally belligerent as Hamas is at the moment (notice I say at the moment). .

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