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Thread: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    The fact that they have the gall to tell us what to do is pretty nuts.
    That's the same thing those protesters say.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
    Since you already received the sarcastic replies to this posting and those that followed in its defense I will attempt not to pile on etc.

    My reply to this original statement is that since peace in the middle east has been on the agenda of pretty much every administration since the establishment of Israel, and many have treated it as a priority and invested much time and effort into establishing peace etc. just exactly what can or will Clinton or Obama have to utilize that will allow them a increased chance at success?
    The situation is odviously very complicated and and results from actions today will be seen in the future. However, I believe that the alternation in our Israeli relations of demanding more of them in improving relations with the
    Palestinians will make it easier for groups in Palestine to be willing to negotiate more for a peace settlement.


    --------

    Here is an interesting op-ed in the New York Times about US-Israeli relations after Obama was ellected. One of the most interesting parts of the article is that the writer in fact uses the words "we" instead of Israel, because he is an Israeli. So his... point of view is important to understand.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/opinion/28benn.html
    "First, in the 16 rosy years of Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, Israelis became spoiled by unfettered presidential attention. Memories of State Department “Arabists” leading American policy in the Middle East were erased. The White House coordinated its policy with Jerusalem, and stayed out of the way when Israel embarked on controversial military offensives in Lebanon and Gaza. This approach infuriated America’s Arab and European allies, which blamed Washington for one-sidedness — something they were willing to forgive of Bill Clinton but not of George W. Bush.

    Mr. Obama came to office determined to repair America’s broken alliances in Europe and the Middle East. One way to do this — to prove that he was the opposite of his predecessor — was to place some distance between Israel and himself."

    At least as the writer for the article says, if Obama wants to make the Palestinians more friends with US interests, then he must make himself appear to be different from his predecessors "one-sidedness" (writer's words).


    --------
    Nothing against either of them, but this problem is so intricate and deeply rooted in thousands of years of history that is showered in brutality it would seem difficult to believe that anyone with the history or experience in this area as these two have would have true ability to have a positive effect.

    Also something I have not seen posted yet is the very fact that the conflicts in question have been "used" to facilitate or substantiate other actions that have proven very successful if not profitable for those outside the conflict with deep concerns or plenty of advice.
    If you believe that Obama's actions have caused some other effect that has not been sourced yet, then if you want to bring it up, it would make sense if you would be the one to source it.

    I am not sure if anyone has claimed that some third party has used Obama's actions for their own self interest.
    Being I have heard the stories from both sides or views from those who have lived through this ordeal, and knowing the very deep beliefs and scaring involved I honestly just do not see the answer to these problems coming from outside the region, and almost believe it must come from within the problem.
    At least from your last sentence, that can be interpreted as we should stop supporting Israel financially, because that makes it easier for Israel to have the power to have a hardline responce to the Palestinians.

    However, since I do support aid to Israel, there needs to be some sort of accountability to their added power, and that would have to be the US if we are giving Israel money.

    But of course you are right, in that any disputes will have to be settled with actions inside of Israel or Palestine.

    I almost want to twist this into a story of why it is not a good idea to hire a shady attorney to help make people be happy and get along, anymore than to hire one to fix your roof, but I figured I would keep it clean and simple.

    Still though protests against the US are not anything new in the ME, it is still interesting to hear of them being held inside our strongest ally in the area, and this should alert us all that something is either changing, or not exactly right.
    It seems that views of America in Israel are changing, and if that is carried over to other countires, then they may possibly see America as more willing to not support Israel on every issue. That would give us more power to have our wishes followed, because they will appear to be more non-partisan and less biased.

    Hopefully...

  3. #43
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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That's the same thing those protesters say.
    When your country has received over a trillion dollars in welfare, that argument goes out the window.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    When your country has received over a trillion dollars in welfare, that argument goes out the window.
    That was not my point.
    The protesters share your view (the other country should not order it around) because the only country that gave any orders is America.
    Foreign aid is a show of support and all, but it doesn't buy Obama the ability to 'demand' stuff from Israel, Israel is a sovereign nation, and it is an ally of the US, not a puppet state.

    By the way, Egypt receives nearly the same amount of foreign aid as Israel but I don't see America trying to order it around.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    By the way, Egypt receives nearly the same amount of foreign aid as Israel but I don't see America trying to order it around.
    It should.
    Any country which gets that much in aid is basically their bitch, especially if they rely on it as it can be pulled theoretically away from them.


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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    It should.
    Any country which gets that much in aid is basically their bitch, especially if they rely on it as it can be pulled theoretically away from them.
    Lol at this kind of logic.
    Sovereignty is not bought with money.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Lol at this kind of logic.
    Sovereignty is not bought with money.
    Every country is the bitch to another.

    Apart from those who hold the leash China, US and Russia.


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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    "Pressure?"

    Israel is propped up by the United States and has been for decades. To our disadvantage. It is one of the weirdest things in history, one of the few incidents where cultural ties provide the basis for a political and military alliance as opposed to economic ones.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-30-09 at 01:37 AM.

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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That was not my point.
    The protesters share your view (the other country should not order it around) because the only country that gave any orders is America.
    Foreign aid is a show of support and all, but it doesn't buy Obama the ability to 'demand' stuff from Israel, Israel is a sovereign nation, and it is an ally of the US, not a puppet state.

    By the way, Egypt receives nearly the same amount of foreign aid as Israel but I don't see America trying to order it around.
    You don't see Egypt trying to annex Israel either. True, Israel is not a puppet state to jump when America says jump.

    But neither should they expect unconditional loyalty when they act in ways that we don't approve of. We are not Israel's puppet either. Or, are we?

    It's like my old buddy Eddie Hix. He was my best friend in High School. But his mouth always got him into trouble and more than once I got my eye blackened coming to his defense. It wasn't so bad when he was right. But more times than not (especially when alcohol was involved) he was just plain wrong. Yet, I was a loyal friend. Haven't seen him in almost 30 years. That's how I wish the US and Israel will be someday.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
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    Re: Anti-Obama Rally in Jerusalem

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That was not my point.
    The protesters share your view (the other country should not order it around) because the only country that gave any orders is America.
    Foreign aid is a show of support and all, but it doesn't buy Obama the ability to 'demand' stuff from Israel, Israel is a sovereign nation, and it is an ally of the US, not a puppet state.
    Perhaps not, but again, receiving over a trillion in welfare and then complaining that the country which gave you that money is being unfair is rather ungrateful.

    By the way, Egypt receives nearly the same amount of foreign aid as Israel but I don't see America trying to order it around.
    Not quite. Egypt never got the kind of massive military equipment for virtually free. Nor did it get the early massive handouts.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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