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Thread: CBO deals new blow to health plan

  1. #61
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    Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Except who in their right mind would ever propose this? The AARP would mount an insurrection worse than the Iraq insurgency. The party/politician that pushes an end to Medicare is one who will never see public office again. Let's put it this way, there may be a lot of elderly Republicans who would become immediate Democrats at the first bill they get for medical or prescriptions. It is politically unattainable, and financially unsustainable. The only option then is to drastically reduce the cost trajectory which is currently rising at a faster rate than inflation (hence why it is now costing $500b/year).
    I'd like to note that I absolutely HATE AARP.

    Of course no one will do anything about it, the only way to push prices down is to expose people to the actual cost of the services they are receiving.

    I can already imagine the calls of "people dieing in the streets" from the lunatics in our country. That phrase should be included as an amendment to Godwin's Law.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #62
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    Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan

    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    Go to the legislative sites and pull up the bills, or to the CBO, and pull up the analysis. If you want to know what's in the various bills, you can find out.

    Once there is ONE bill, out of conference, then it will be easier to follow, of course, b/c there won't be competing bills and proposals and counterproposals.
    Not quite that easy at this stage, but at least the law still requires a CBO mark up on costs. Currently the CBO not only says that the cost will likely far exceed any numbers we are being spoon fed, but that the savings will be no more than a couple of billion against a trillion plus in increased spending, and even that couple of billion in savings is unlikely.

    Do you ever hear the President or Pelosi or anybody else pushing this mentioning what the CBO says? Of course not. But still you trust them.


    The second mega bailout, is that the auto bailout? I'm pretty sure we know what we did with that money.

    And, the economy was in crisis, and there was a flat out emergency. Thank God a flat out free fall has been averted. Bad as this is, THAT would have been a world of hurt worse.
    Some of the second bailout was used for the auto industry, but it wasn't sold that way. And no, nobody does know what they did with most of that money. They don't even know what happened to most of it. But right now, our government is using that money--OUR money--to pay people $9000 to trade in an old car on a new one just so long as it is a GM or Chrysler product. Maybe you think that is a proper use of your tax money. I will be doing everything I can do to eject those in Washington who have so little understanding of the economy, who would screw over honest business enterprises that way, or who have so little concern for the taxpayer money.

    (P.S. A substantial majority of Americans do not want the government to own the auto industry, the banks, or any other major industries. But it seems to own an awful lot of that right now.)

    And if the economy was in so much crisis that they had to do this, why are they now saying that we can't expect any significant 'rescue' of the economy for a year or two. Of course they hope we'll forget what they initially said and promised by the next election day.

    There is absolutely not an obvious intent to dismantle and rebuild the system. There is an annoying and obvious intent to preserve private health insurance options. Not annoying in that they will be there, but annoying in that big companies will not have access to either the proposed health insurance exchange, or the proposed public option - specifically so that everyone will not get the hell out of their current plans. I think choice should be freer, and if large companies want access too, they should have it, but they won't.
    I have been listening to what the President and the experts say. You obviously have not though I think you mean well. But I think it unwise to trust any government with 17% more of the economy especially after witnessing what they are doing with that they have already seized.


    I don't know, that's how our gov't works. Noone thinks it's perfect, but then again, dismantling and rebuilding our legislative process isn't really on the agenda right now. We have alot of other things on our plate right now. Although, I've heard some in the progressive blogosphere talking about the committee process and how it needs to be blown up.

    I do have a great deal of optimism that this will be addressed and accomplished. I'm looking forward to it. Of course, I don't expect perfection, but we never get perfection. That's not a reason not to move forward tho.
    The leftwing bloggers are fond of posting stuff like, well at least the President is doing something and nobody else has come up with a plan. The GOP is the party of NO. Etc. Etc. And most seem to be as trusting and willing to turn their lives over to more and more government control as you are.

    But some--most of us now--are not willing to do that and don't trust government to have our best interests at heart considering how much they are lying to us to convince us that they do. It is not only necessary but critical to dig in our heels and try to stop this train wreck before it happens.

    Thomas Sowell once said: "When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with?" I think most of us are attempting to put out a fire that, if left unchecked, could permanently change our glorious Republic experiment into something far less satisfactory. And we will not easily get it back.

    Not everything is appropriate for government to "fix". And the more it arrogantly presumes to do so, the worse it will make things. We are witnessing that now.


    I trust my doc with my healthcare needs, but I'm trusting the Congress to improve - vastly - on the wreck of health insurance that exists right now
    You are a far more trusting soul when it comes to handing people power over your life than I am.
    Last edited by AlbqOwl; 07-26-09 at 08:58 AM.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #63
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    Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    CBO deals new blow to health plan - Chris Frates - POLITICO.com
    When it comes to past health care reform efforts, Washington has made little meaningful effort to address budget neutrality, which is, in part, a function of addressing the persistence of health expenditures rising faster than economic growth. Instead of making tough, unpopular, but necessary choices, two common devices have been used to try to circumvent the costs/budget impact:

    1. Savings will appear from technology or efficiency gains. In reality, such savings have been very small relative to political expectations. Of course, government is not alone in touting such savings. One sees similar statements following mergers. In a majority of cases, those savings either never materialize to the level that had been expected and, in some, don't materialize at all.

    2. A board will be created to help oversee expenditures growth.

    CBO has done a good job to date in addressing the budget and cost impact of the proposed health care legislation. The reality is that such legislation is not paid-for and it would not address the critical issue of rising health expenditures that has put the nation's finances on an unsustainable fiscal course.

    In a hint that Congress lacks the resolve to bring about budget neutrality, the recent pay-go legislation is filled with loopholes. One such loophole would exempt increases in Medicare payments to physicians from triggering offsetting budget cuts/tax hikes to maintain budget neutrality.

    On the point of the loopholes, CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf explained:

    However, the proposed process has other features—a proposed temporary rule to score certain changes in spending and revenues relative to “current policy” rather than current law; a modification of the baseline’s treatment of some expiring mandatory programs; and new procedures for scoring legislation that would convert programs’ spending from discretionary to mandatory—that could lead to greater spending or reduced revenues in the coming decade than would occur under the existing House and Senate rules. In addition, some features of the bill’s proposed sequestration mechanism would limit its usefulness in deterring increases in spending.

  4. #64
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    Arrow Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan...•

    •►`That's an interesting plan everyone, a health plan..!









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  5. #65
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    Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In a hint that Congress lacks the resolve to bring about budget neutrality, the recent pay-go legislation is filled with loopholes. One such loophole would exempt increases in Medicare payments to physicians from triggering offsetting budget cuts/tax hikes to maintain budget neutrality.

    On the point of the loopholes, CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf explained:

    However, the proposed process has other features—a proposed temporary rule to score certain changes in spending and revenues relative to “current policy” rather than current law; a modification of the baseline’s treatment of some expiring mandatory programs; and new procedures for scoring legislation that would convert programs’ spending from discretionary to mandatory—that could lead to greater spending or reduced revenues in the coming decade than would occur under the existing House and Senate rules. In addition, some features of the bill’s proposed sequestration mechanism would limit its usefulness in deterring increases in spending.
    The point you make is critical to the debate. In the President's eagerness to add meaningful healthcare reform to his legacy, and in some of Congress's eagerness to insert government control into every facet of the American economy and structure, they intentionally or negligently omit many many considerations that have to be included to show the American people what they are buying. So Congress lies, and the President obfusicates in his press conferences, and we are left trying to dig out the facts as best we can.

    One elephant in the room not being discussed is this:

    How Cap and Trade Affects the Health Care Debate
    Posted July 14th, 2009 at 11.04am in Energy and Environment, Health Care.

    The Waxman-Markey energy tax plan will have all sorts of unwanted side effects. As the healthcare debate ramps up, it’s worth noting problems misguided global warming legislation can generate for medical care.

    Though it would be nearly impossible to trace all the impacts of higher energy costs on medical services, one broad measure is the impact on the costs of medical care. By driving up energy costs, Waxman-Markey will drive up the costs of running hospitals, manufacturing medical equipment, producing drugs, driving ambulances, and virtually every other component of our healthcare system.

    The Center for Data Analysis analyzed the economic impact of the Waxman-Markey energy tax legislation using the sophisticated Global Insight macro model. This model allows detailed analysis of the impacts by industry.

    So what happens to healthcare? On top of all the other factors that will lead to higher prices down the road, Waxman-Markey will add an additional 11.6 percent to healthcare costs by 2035 (the last year of the analysis). So, though Waxman-Markey aims its economic bombs at global warming, healthcare will suffer hundreds of billions of dollars in collateral damage each year.
    How Cap and Trade Affects the Health Care Debate The Foundry
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #66
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    Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course no one will do anything about it, the only way to push prices down is to expose people to the actual cost of the services they are receiving.
    Good luck. People are already so stuck in their sentimentalities that they don't care to see what would actually improve things.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
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  7. #67
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    Re: CBO deals new blow to health plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    The point you make is critical to the debate. In the President's eagerness to add meaningful healthcare reform to his legacy, and in some of Congress's eagerness to insert government control into every facet of the American economy and structure, they intentionally or negligently omit many many considerations that have to be included to show the American people what they are buying. So Congress lies, and the President obfusicates in his press conferences, and we are left trying to dig out the facts as best we can.

    One elephant in the room not being discussed is this:
    Excellent point about cap-and-trade padding health care costs. Proves yet again that government control of any industry is at best a blunt instrument that is nearly impossible to wield without doing more harm than good.

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