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Thread: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

  1. #101
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    If all that were so, Obama and the perpfessor wouldn't be backpedaling now.
    Back peddling on what? Obama said the officers acted stupidly, and he said he regrets saying those things. Gates still links his arrest to racism and has just recently said he hopes to use this incident as an example to help address race relations.

    This isn't back peddling. Gates still thinks he won, Obama is covering his ass because he knew he spoke out of turn. What you are doing is taking this and spinning in completely off into left field. The department still admitted they were wrong, that has never been retracted. Nothing in that report has changed. Crowley still screwed up.

    You go ahead and continue dreaming that either of these two men are giving ground for their mistakes. They are not.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 07-26-09 at 04:56 PM.
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    The incident was to most obviously not a racially motivated one, but rather just another example fully supporting the problems that come from continued watering down of our rights, increased police and government power, and changes in training at various police academies that mimic the military.

    I heard two different news reporters nail this down pretty well though with totally different meanings or intents, and what they said was pretty much that "you risk arrest every time you leave your home".

    I know some laws vary by state, but actually once a call has been placed into headquarters the officers need to respond, and once the door is even opened they have full right to force entry to follow up on the call.

    It may sound completely wrong that you can not refuse entry into your own home being most believe ones home is their castle etc, but when the officers are investigating a call somehow things change.

    Maybe someone else here could supply support information on when this became acceptable or legal, but I believe it was part of the scam involving probable cause etc.

    Another potential cause of the escalation may be directly related to changes in police training. I have personally seen, and discussed this with officers I have known for many years, and there is a trend for new problems with public relations of newer officers (those graduating from the academy within the last 10-15 yrs) from how some are being trained in a way that is causing them to be prepared and ultimately treat citizens as potential enemy combatants, or imminent threats to the officers life.

    If you have not already noticed take notice of how different a veteran officer and a newer one handle similar situations, and how different everything from body language to preparing their weapon can be for even the most normal circumstances.

    I guess this could be debated, but I know very well this is totally color blind.

    Another change I have noticed is the seemingly desperate need to be 150% fully in charge and control of everyone and everything when dealing with the public that just did not exist previously. Maybe a vet can know he is in control without having to stifle everyone (pretty much squashing their 1st amendment rights) completely, and is better able through experience to know when things are about to escalate and action is needed.

    I do understand that it must be really hard for anyone to have to have a feeling of total helplessness that would accompany not being allowed to voice their opinion and have any protection on their own property etc. and I do believe this and the cause of this to be wrong, but this is something that anyone in that situation would have to endure, and has nothing to do with ones race.

    I almost found it comical that this was heading to be a racial profiling issue, and if not for the seriousness I guess it could be.

    I remember a case in a resort town where the local beach town officers (summer help included) responded to a noise complaint where they ended up pulling an adult male and his senior father from the building and throwing them to the ground (injuring the elder one) soon as the door knob was turned to open the door. Though there was several racial slurs involved towards more than one people (guess the tans from the beach was confusing) and so many unusual actions taking place considering the original call and everything this racial part just never went any ware.

    Point is as the real racial tensions have improved greatly it seems that everyone is now more suspect than ever, and we may eventually find ourselves getting along perfectly (a good thing) in a police state where everyone is targeted as an enemy of the state no matter their color, race or religion (a really really bad thing).

    I guess if we follow this story as a guide all we need to do is go pound a few 40's and everything will be OK (well I guess as long as some get tagged for DUI or disorderly persons so that we are helping to support the income of the government some).

    I hope someone with the intelligence of what it should take to be considered a scholar will be able to look at all the evidence without prejudice and start working on making changes to what the real problems are that lead to this incident, and maybe just maybe if following ones training does not include arresting anyone who strongly verbally disagrees with an officer as being a crime then we may see a positive outcome in the long term.
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Back peddling on what? Obama said the officers acted stupidly, and he said he regrets saying those things. Gates still links his arrest to racism and has just recently said he hopes to use this incident as an example to help address race relations.

    This isn't back peddling. Gates still thinks he won, Obama is covering his ass because he knew he spoke out of turn. What you are doing is taking this and spinning in completely off into left field. The department still admitted they were wrong, that has never been retracted. Nothing in that report has changed. Crowley still screwed up.

    You go ahead and continue dreaming that either of these two men are giving ground for their mistakes. They are not.
    No you dream on.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    They don't find you all that interesting. They stop you just because you're black.


    .




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  5. #105
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
    The incident was to most obviously not a racially motivated one, but rather just another example fully supporting the problems that come from continued watering down of our rights, increased police and government power, and changes in training at various police academies that mimic the military.

    I heard two different news reporters nail this down pretty well though with totally different meanings or intents, and what they said was pretty much that "you risk arrest every time you leave your home".

    I know some laws vary by state, but actually once a call has been placed into headquarters the officers need to respond, and once the door is even opened they have full right to force entry to follow up on the call.

    It may sound completely wrong that you can not refuse entry into your own home being most believe ones home is their castle etc, but when the officers are investigating a call somehow things change.

    Maybe someone else here could supply support information on when this became acceptable or legal, but I believe it was part of the scam involving probable cause etc.

    Another potential cause of the escalation may be directly related to changes in police training. I have personally seen, and discussed this with officers I have known for many years, and there is a trend for new problems with public relations of newer officers (those graduating from the academy within the last 10-15 yrs) from how some are being trained in a way that is causing them to be prepared and ultimately treat citizens as potential enemy combatants, or imminent threats to the officers life.

    If you have not already noticed take notice of how different a veteran officer and a newer one handle similar situations, and how different everything from body language to preparing their weapon can be for even the most normal circumstances.

    I guess this could be debated, but I know very well this is totally color blind.

    Another change I have noticed is the seemingly desperate need to be 150% fully in charge and control of everyone and everything when dealing with the public that just did not exist previously. Maybe a vet can know he is in control without having to stifle everyone (pretty much squashing their 1st amendment rights) completely, and is better able through experience to know when things are about to escalate and action is needed.

    I do understand that it must be really hard for anyone to have to have a feeling of total helplessness that would accompany not being allowed to voice their opinion and have any protection on their own property etc. and I do believe this and the cause of this to be wrong, but this is something that anyone in that situation would have to endure, and has nothing to do with ones race.

    I almost found it comical that this was heading to be a racial profiling issue, and if not for the seriousness I guess it could be.

    I remember a case in a resort town where the local beach town officers (summer help included) responded to a noise complaint where they ended up pulling an adult male and his senior father from the building and throwing them to the ground (injuring the elder one) soon as the door knob was turned to open the door. Though there was several racial slurs involved towards more than one people (guess the tans from the beach was confusing) and so many unusual actions taking place considering the original call and everything this racial part just never went any ware.

    Point is as the real racial tensions have improved greatly it seems that everyone is now more suspect than ever, and we may eventually find ourselves getting along perfectly (a good thing) in a police state where everyone is targeted as an enemy of the state no matter their color, race or religion (a really really bad thing).

    I guess if we follow this story as a guide all we need to do is go pound a few 40's and everything will be OK (well I guess as long as some get tagged for DUI or disorderly persons so that we are helping to support the income of the government some).

    I hope someone with the intelligence of what it should take to be considered a scholar will be able to look at all the evidence without prejudice and start working on making changes to what the real problems are that lead to this incident, and maybe just maybe if following ones training does not include arresting anyone who strongly verbally disagrees with an officer as being a crime then we may see a positive outcome in the long term.
    I'm only half joking when I say: I blame 'Cops.'

    Nice post.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
    I'm only half joking when I say: I blame 'Cops.'

    Nice post.
    Quote Originally Posted by mixedmedia View Post
    I'm only half joking when I say: I blame 'Cops.'

    Nice post.
    Appreciate the kind words.

    Not that it is always the case, but I am leaning towards not blaming the actual officers one bit as they have appeared to have followed their training fully and were within the law in their actions etc, but to be clear it may be the training and the interpretation of the law combined with so many years of washing down our rights through new laws that is the true underlying problem.

    Spend some time discussing freedoms, and especially personal freedoms with someone who has been around a long time (AKA older than dirt lol) and it becomes obvious that many of the laws cited, and practices used on these "nuisance" offenses are very new, and suspect to their having been created just for the purpose of "keeping people in line".

    I guess if we retained all of our rights we would be just too much trouble for our government, and they would have a more difficult time handling everyone, but also on the other hand there are way way way too many people who abuse those rights as well.

    I would not want to be the person who was responsible for counting the amount of times someone screamed racist or brutality when they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar and was scheming a way out of trouble. It is sad, and despicable, but worse it seems to be very common, and even a way of life for some.

    Not everyone agrees on just how things should be, or if things are just becoming too complex by nature due to the need to be able to support the ever increasing ranks of law enforcement (your opinion can vary greatly on this depending on location, and just how many officers per 1000 citizens exist in your area) and there is a undeniable need to increase income to satisfy the increased costs so there is less of an obvious drain on taxes.

    Having many contacts in the legal system in the past I had learned of how many laws were specifically written and designed to enhance fines, penalties, and depending on the location a slew of mandatory "donations" to all kinds of programs with the most important sounding names (Safe streets, Safe neighborhoods, and various "victim funds") for even the most mundane offenses that had nothing to do with program funded.

    To make matters worse there is little oversight on many of the programs, and the dollars stripped from the defendant may never actually be used as the programs name would make one believe.

    I know this all varies state to state, and even between towns etc, but one thing that remains very clear is that when everything is said and done there is little concern of the race, color or religion of the person making these mandatory donations.

    We can believe what we choose, but you can not hide the fact that someone has to pay for all of it, and if we had all of our rights intact fully it would be difficult to fund it all.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by LennyD View Post
    Appreciate the kind words.

    Not that it is always the case, but I am leaning towards not blaming the actual officers one bit as they have appeared to have followed their training fully and were within the law in their actions etc, but to be clear it may be the training and the interpretation of the law combined with so many years of washing down our rights through new laws that is the true underlying problem.

    Spend some time discussing freedoms, and especially personal freedoms with someone who has been around a long time (AKA older than dirt lol) and it becomes obvious that many of the laws cited, and practices used on these "nuisance" offenses are very new, and suspect to their having been created just for the purpose of "keeping people in line".

    I guess if we retained all of our rights we would be just too much trouble for our government, and they would have a more difficult time handling everyone, but also on the other hand there are way way way too many people who abuse those rights as well.

    I would not want to be the person who was responsible for counting the amount of times someone screamed racist or brutality when they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar and was scheming a way out of trouble. It is sad, and despicable, but worse it seems to be very common, and even a way of life for some.

    Not everyone agrees on just how things should be, or if things are just becoming too complex by nature due to the need to be able to support the ever increasing ranks of law enforcement (your opinion can vary greatly on this depending on location, and just how many officers per 1000 citizens exist in your area) and there is a undeniable need to increase income to satisfy the increased costs so there is less of an obvious drain on taxes.

    Having many contacts in the legal system in the past I had learned of how many laws were specifically written and designed to enhance fines, penalties, and depending on the location a slew of mandatory "donations" to all kinds of programs with the most important sounding names (Safe streets, Safe neighborhoods, and various "victim funds") for even the most mundane offenses that had nothing to do with program funded.

    To make matters worse there is little oversight on many of the programs, and the dollars stripped from the defendant may never actually be used as the programs name would make one believe.

    I know this all varies state to state, and even between towns etc, but one thing that remains very clear is that when everything is said and done there is little concern of the race, color or religion of the person making these mandatory donations.

    We can believe what we choose, but you can not hide the fact that someone has to pay for all of it, and if we had all of our rights intact fully it would be difficult to fund it all.
    lol, I wasn't referring to the Gates incident as, honestly, I haven't been following the story. I was referring to your comments about the attitudes of some young people coming into our police forces and blaming it on the television show 'Cops.' Probably one of our earliest 'reality' shows. I was making a joke, but then again, I can see how exposure to those scenes in the show as defining 'what a cop does' could give young people going into police work the impression that their job is to corral undesirables...perhaps even a desire to have that power.

    Granted, I didn't intend it to be taken wholly seriously.

    And I agree with your further comments here.
    Underneath the concrete, The dream is still alive
    A hundred million lifetimes, A world that never dies - Talking Heads, City of Dreams

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  8. #108
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    "watcha gonna do when THEY come for you"

    What a great show that mostly showed us:

    The majority of criminals do not wear shirts

    Really stupid people will still do really stupid things even when a camera is rollin

    It may require several heavily armed and well trained officers to take down and arrest a half naked drunken hillbilly before the rest of their clothes are gone

    Cameras can be shut off during trips to the donut shop (ever notice lol)

    And one of my favorites
    Smart cops do not sneak in a punch or kick on a down suspect when the camera is rolling

    Still it is one damn funny and entertaining show, and maybe we need to start a thread to debate everything on Cops.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"
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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    lol, it seems every black man they find to interview on the news shows agrees it was not a racist thing. For once people, president discluded, are seeing the truth and facts in the case.

    My husband almost got arrested when he argued with a cop after we called them to our house. He wanted them to do more than they were doing and they didn't want to hear it and told him to calm down or be arrested. So he calmed down and they didn't arrest him. I'm sure it was due to the fact he's Mexican though.
    Well since you admitted that your hubby is an ilegal he not only should have been arrested but deported. LOL I am joking ! But isn't that what most people would think when told that your argumentative and possibly danergous hubby is a Mexican ?
    I do not recall the Viet Cong asking me if I was a natural born or Naturalized American before they shot at me, they just shot at all of us f107HyperSabr

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    Re: Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by F107HyperSabr View Post
    Well since you admitted that your hubby is an ilegal he not only should have been arrested but deported. LOL I am joking ! But isn't that what most people would think when told that your argumentative and possibly danergous hubby is a Mexican ?
    Born in east LA, American style

    Can someone tell me why is that once the Popo show up everyone who is either in disagreement, in anyway threatening, or just not responding as they would like has a really good chance of being arrested (very likely roughed up some too in many cases) and has to decide between suking it up or grinning and bear it and being arrested?

    I know the above depends a whole lot on the particular officer etc, and that is why I am finding the link between the changes in training at the academy and the increase in problems with otherwise perfectly fine law abiding citizens.

    Maybe if there was a change in the training and also in the disorderly persons type laws where there was a need for an actual "real" law to be broken before a person could be arrested etc the officers would not bother with arresting people who just were not happy with something and did not kiss their you know what, and just arrest the real offenders.

    I personally watched two unrelated cases where such abuses took place, and the resulting actions including arrest were not needed though fully within the law.

    One was where a young black male was pepper sprayed and thrown into the back of a cruiser by several officers for basically being upset after an accident he was not at fault of and being rather large (well over 300lb and at least 6'11"). This happened right outside my office window at the time, and though perfectly within the law (the much smaller officer was obviously threatened by the continued pacing, throwing about of his arms, and ranting and raving of the driver) it was absolutely not necessary as the kid was obviously harmless.

    Later that same day in a totally different area I watched some other officers waste no time in arresting a motorist who was having a argument with his wife/girl in a parking lot, in what appeared to be a case where they were both too busy with their argument (not physical in any way) to be fully following the officers instructions. I understand that there needs to be some order when investigating any situation etc, but escalating the situation (both cases) to the point where an arrest is needed where no "real laws" are being broken is just well a problem that needs to be addressed. To add insult to injury they only arrested the male so I guess that must mean cops are just racist against males

    Lastly I will share a case where the police had found a couple (later married) having a loud discussion at a gas station where the officers found it necessary to immediately arrest the male without any other interaction, proceed to rough him up for hours, file false reports covering their arses, and later lie under oath about the whole event only because they found the female much too nice for him.

    This one was interesting as years later another officer had admitted to knowing and being aware of the whole case first hand from his fellow officers in their confessing to him on tape and though the couple now married (the husband a successful doctor) and the case against the officers for wrongful arrest etc was pushed to be reopened only to be thrown out by the court due to being a day past time limitations (the actual time was debated, but the court prevailed).

    Even the officials agreed that this one was "one of those cases" etc, but the point is that without the BS laws allowing such behavior and making arrests for nuisance actions so popular there would be less chance of the problems like seen with Gates and so many others in the first place.

    Remember our law enforcement officers have a really tough job of putting themselves in harms way in order to protect law abiding citizens while doing their best to stay within the rule of the law, and the government making them little more than glorified tax collectors where the main intent is to create a steady stream of income from the thousands of dollars normally needed for anyone to get through the process of being arrested (no matter the offense, and I wont even get into motor vehicle crimes by the state here) is not only needlessly complicating things to the point of officers being called racist, but is totally wrong no matter the color of those being arrested.

    Instead of some "stupid" beer summit (ridiculous btw) lets make a point to change or remove the laws and conditions leading up to the actual problem, and force the government to give up this source of income that causes us to become criminals to work, and also jeopardizes the safety of both the public and law enforcement.

    Enough already!!
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"
    Albert Einstein


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