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Thread: Drug czar: Feds won't support legalized pot

  1. #61
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Roth View Post
    actually its worse than both
    No, it's not.

    "Reaction time for motor skills, such as driving, are reduced by 41% after smoking 1 joint and is reduced by 63% after smoking 2 joints"
    So? It has a more intoxicating effect. Big deal? Vodka is more intoxicating than beer when used in equal amounts. What's your point?
    "The daily use of 1 to 3 marijuana joints can produce the same lung damage and potential cancer risk as smoking five times as many cigarettes."
    You claim marijuana can produce lung cancer faster than tobacco...it's not true it but let's run with it. Do you think that making marijuana legally obtainable is going to result in an new wave of heavy duty pot smokers? Given the highly addictive nature of nicotine and the fact that it's legal, I'd say your crusade would be better spent trying to prohibit tobacco. I know plenty of people who are heavily addicted to nicotine and smoke between one and two packs a day. If you are really THAT concerned about the cancer causing effects of smoked substances, then you are fighting the wrong battle.

    this will be the last time i am going to respond to you because i know i am dealing with a true nut case, your not even providing the logical arguments of PRO-Marijuana advocates.
    I absolutely have. Run away all you want, but your arguments have been little more than a litany of propaganda and personal anecdotes. I'm not a nut case, I'm the guy who doesn't let you off the hook with your weak **** arguments.

    the point i am trying to make and have been trying to make, is that with increased use there is increased numbers of addiction. and with addiction comes the losses, or do you think addiction also is beneficial?
    Addiction to anything is not good. Addiction is a result of somebody not using responsibly. I've been drinking since I was 17 years old, I'm not an alcoholic. I drink socially at parties sometimes, rarely do I ever drink at home. Occasionally I drink with friends or when entertaining clients. We get buzzed for sure. But we don't drive. I'm not an addict nor am I a threat to society because I'm a responsible consumer of intoxicants. Just like millions and millions of other people. You'd never know we partook of the evils of intoxicants if we didn't tell you.

    You see the hole in your argument is that you assume everyone will become an addict. Legalization will not increase use to any measurable degree nor will it result in an increase of drug addicts. You're insane if you think that's the case.

    Once again you are trying to regulate personal responsibility.


    do you really think it is possible to quantify emotional loss? put it in numbers?
    economically,
    No, but I do know that it's retarded to blame substance abuse on the existence of the substance and not on the personal issues of the abuser.
    "The negative consequences of drug abuse affect not only individuals who abuse drugs but also their families and friends, various businesses, and government resources. Although many of these effects cannot be quantified, ONDCP recently reported that in 2002, the economic cost of drug abuse to the United States was $180.9 billion. "
    How much of that was related to marijuana? Further, you need to tell everyone how much of that was related to enforcement and incarceration. The substance itself is not responsible for those figures. The individuals using the illegal substances getting caught, going to trial, and going to jail are the majority of those expenses. If it were legal that number, or at least the portion attributed to marijuana, would drop remarkably.

    Wrong,
    i am talking about Abusers and the effect that a more socially executable drug such as Marijuana WILL have on the number of abusers, Not to mention the casual smokers who decide to get in their car after a join or 2 on a Saturday night
    I find it amazing you can make an argument like this and expect to be taken seriously. You have yet to prove what effect legalization would have on marijuana use. You are setting here making some anemic plea that legalization will lead to casual smokers toking up and driving. I have news for you, MILLIONS of Americans already smoke pot casually. They already toke and drive. Legalization will not impact that to any measurable degree. Either put up statistical data to verify your boogey man claims or just stop.

    WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! i have said the word Morality 2 times, one of which was to say it was my own belief and has little to do with my point! you can shape your image of me anyway you would like but if you have Read my argument then you would know i am not making that stand here and now.
    You made the argument, are you now retracting it?

    And personal responsibility isn't so personal when someone is irresponsible.
    but here are the effects on society.
    What????

    "Children of individuals who abuse drugs often are abused or neglected as a result of the individuals' preoccupation with drugs. National-level studies have shown that parents who abuse drugs often put their need to obtain and abuse drugs before the health and welfare of their children."

    "Children whose parents and other family members abuse drugs often are physically or emotionally abused and often lack proper immunizations, medical care, dental care, and necessities such as food, water, and shelter. "
    There is a difference between marijuana and heroin or methamphetamines. We are talking about marijuana. I have years of personal experience investigating the homes of "drug users." I have dealt with scores of casual users who are responsible, productive members of society. What does your study say is the impact that marijuana has on children of users and their home life? Because we aren't talking about all drugs, we are talking about marijuana.

    "The economic impact of drug abuse on businesses whose employees abuse drugs can be significant. While many drug abusers are unable to attain or hold full-time employment, those who do work put others at risk, particularly when employed in positions where even a minor degree of impairment could be catastrophic; airline pilots, air traffic controllers, train operators, and bus drivers are just a few examples."
    Well here we go again with you arguing about a matter of personal responsibility but masking it as a reason to vilify a substance. Employees who use drugs to the extent that it effects their work are personally irresponsible. Plenty of people use marijuana casually and lead perfectly productive, successful lives. I'm a casual drinker and make a damn good living, take care of my family, pay my billls.
    Prescription drug abuse is an entirely different subject, There is a doctor standing in between you and a drug, most drugs used for short periods of time and for specific reasons and specific problems, and if someone abuses those drugs, it is largely the fault of the doctor continuing to supply the patient with those drugs. Most Medical drug abuse is NON prescription drugs.
    Bull****. You know absolutely nothing about illicit presciption drug trafficking then my friend. Tell you what, you need to do some research. Your ignorance on this subject alone speaks volumes about where you are coming from. What I find completely amusing is that you are blaming the doctor instead of the person choosing to abuse the drug. Tells me a lot about your mindset. "Don't worry, it's not your fault...it's the doctors, you should have never had access to those pills." I took Vicodin for quite a while after a bad knee injury that required multiple surgeries. I realized several weeks into my recovery I was self dosing to cope with the pain rather than follow the doctors instructions. The day I realized I was looking forward to taking my meds I quit. It wasn't the doctors fault, it was mine. Personal responsibility. You can't live people lives for them or make their choices for them.

    Thank god you don't get the cancer causing effects of cigarettes and the debilitating effects to your motor skills with over the counter drugs at least.
    Ever guzzle cough syrup. Next?
    unfortunately you forget not all people are responsible, in fact, it only takes one act of irresponsibility in the billions of decisions we make in our lives, to effect all those around you in a negative way.
    So? It still boils down to personal responsibility. You can dance around this all you want, but your argument here doesn't change that fact.

    up cakes are not safe??? Mountain dew is not safe?
    Not when consumed in excess. They lead to obesity in some people. Obesity is a killer. What are you going to do about that?

    what are you smoking? wait let me guess Marijuana...
    Nope, as I pointed out in another thread, I don't partake of the herb because of my employment. And I don't smoke. If it ever were to become legal and my employment didn't prohibit it's use, I would try it in a brownie or some other food product.

    I dont fear that ill kill someone if i drive after eating a cup cake and drinking a can of Mountain dew.
    Don't worry, I knew you'd miss the point entirely. But it is funny you resort back to an argument about personal responsibility yet refuse to acknowledge what you are doing.

    I dont Deny the Medical Benefits Of Marijuana, and i have not thus far,
    But what i have said is that The Drug has more adverse Effects than Benefits,
    No it doesn't, and you haven't in any way proven that it does.

    and that all the Benefits you get from Medical Marijuana you can get from Already Produced alternatives
    If that's true why do so many people turn to marijuana when the course of treatment their doctors prescribe doesn't work? Just curious.

    without the Economic and Social impact that Marijuana can have and does Already have upon people.
    I find it hilarious to watch you spin like a top on this subject. Until you break the "social and economic impacts" of marijuana out separate from drugs like heroin, meth, and cocaine...you can just keep this propaganda campaign to yourself. You've not even come close to identifying the impact marijuana has on society or the economy. Period.

    We are talking about marijuana...it'd be nice if you tried to do the same.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 07-25-09 at 08:19 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

  2. #62
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Roth View Post
    "The negative consequences of drug abuse affect not only individuals who abuse drugs but also their families and friends, various businesses, and government resources. Although many of these effects cannot be quantified, ONDCP recently reported that in 2002, the economic cost of drug abuse to the United States was $180.9 billion. "
    They worded that poorly.. it should be the "cost of drug prohibition to the US was 180.9 billion""

    40 billion of which is interdiction and eradication alone. Then add in the costs of prosecution, incarceration, lack of employability due to having a record for drug possession, and it is not a huge leap to see where that 180 billion of cost comes from.

  3. #63
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    I've tried not to sound like I'm saying there will be no increase whatsoever. Prohibitionists constantly assume that legalization would increase drug use, and their arguments are always in terms of social consequences. Which implies that the discussion is about trends on the macro level, not splitting hairs on the micro level.
    I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you wholly. I was just addressing a common sticking point that some advocates get caught on when making the argument. Our detractors will definitely mince words over this issue, it's about all they can do.
    *insert profound statement here*

  4. #64
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    I wouldn't go as far as to say that marijuana is of NO benefit, medical or whatever. But I am of the opinion that it's actual BENEFITS are over rated.

    I am also of the opinion that the effects of marijuana, when used for recreational use, responsibly, adds a flavor to this thing we call life, much like icing adds to a cake.

    The question is, does the pro outweigh the con?

    I mean, take cars for example. They add to our way of life. How many die each year from auto accidents? Still, we have decided the good of automobiles outweighs the bad.

    How about booze in general? What's a wedding without champagne? But alcohol kills thousands upon thousands each and every year. Our society has decided that alcohol shall remain legal despite it's side effects.

    Then there is pot. For some ilogical reason, (based on our precidented standards of society,) it remains illegal? I mean, like, serious DUH?!?!?!

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

  5. #65
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post

    The question is, does the pro outweigh the con?
    You just boiled the whole issue down to its base form right there. There is no perfect solution, the best solution is the least bad.

  6. #66
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's the part that blows me away. The folks that are the strongest supporters of legal weed are the same folks who are the strongest opponents of fast food, soft drinks and cigarettes.
    What on earth are you talking about? "Strongest opponents of?" Not on this forum they aren't.

    What blows me away is that given the nature of the actual health epidemic that is the cigarette industry some of you social crusaders aren't blowing up Phillip Morris. Seriously, there are legal substances out there right now that are genuinely costing this nation billions a year in health care expenses and I don't you all starting or participating in any anti-smoking threads.

    Personally, I don't smoke, but I don't go after those that do. It's their thing, they must live with the results. But if I ever chose to take a crusade to get an unhealthy substance banned, it'd be cigarettes.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You've not countered a single argument on the subject. Until you start actually debating nobody is really going to care what your opinion is.


    Two things: First...I didn't make that argument. Second, it's "lamest."


    Never said they wouldn't be. Show me where I did.


    Sure they will.


    Now this is the lamest argument thus far in the thread. Right there behind the "it'll damage our virtue" argument.
    The only refute you have is to preach to me about something that matters not, take my comments out of context and proof read my posts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  8. #68
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Personally, I don't smoke, but I don't go after those that do. It's their thing, they must live with the results. But if I ever chose to take a crusade to get an unhealthy substance banned, it'd be cigarettes.
    Therein lies the hypocrisy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #69
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    Re: Drug czar: Feds won't support legalized pot

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    I figured as much Obama didnt have the stones to stand up to the drug war crowd.
    Unfortunately it continues to be the third rail of politics, then of course there is that sticky issue of a few international treaties that we crammed down everyones throat that we would have to renig on to make legalization a reality. Unfortunately we grandstanded on the world stage and tied ourselves into this straight jacket.

  10. #70
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    Re: Obama's drug czar: Marijuana 'has no medical benefit'

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Therein lies the hypocrisy.
    No hypocrisy at all. Can you not read?
    *insert profound statement here*

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