Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

Tubub said:

We supported the mujihadeen in the 1980s order to defeat the Soviet Union.(We actually screwed up the game generally since we funneled funds through the ISI, who used the oppurtunity to support rebels that they favored... usually militant Islamists.). Afterwards, we forgot about Afghanistan all together and allowed the cards to fall where they may in the country.

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Uhm…that’s what I figured you would say. In the 80s we did exactly what we should have done. That is use the Mujahideen as a proxy to bleed our enemy the Soviets dry and then leave as soon as our mission was accomplished, and since Muslims don’t attack us or wage jihad against us because of what we do, when we exited Afghanistan that was the correct thing to do.

Furthermore, the real reason Muslims attack us in case you haven’t heard yet is because of the universal mission of Islam, which is to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Islamic Sharia Law.

Thus, in 2001 had our leaders not been so blinded by multicultural political correctness, they wouldn’t have betrayed the trust of the America people by miserably failing to study the texts, tenants, and history of Islam, and instead of jumping into the middle of a civil war, they would have aided the losing side, in that case the Northern Alliance, so that the jihad between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban would have lasted and endured as long as possible, while at the same time they also would have targeted and obliterated OBL and AQ.

Muslims killing Muslims inside the Dar al Islam (domain of belief) is good for the Dar al Harb (domain of disbelief) and very bad for the Dar al Islam. Thus, we should have played them off on each other, then turned around and looked for other cracks and fissures within the camp of Islam to exploit to out advantage.

Btw, no where in Islam texts does it say anything about killing Americans. That is a radical interpretation of Islam...

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To the contrary, if you study the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sira (the biography of Muhammad), which together make up the traditions and example of Muhammad, the holy prophet, known compositely as the Sunnah (example), you will find out that Muslims are commanded by the Koran, the Sunnah, and Muhammad, their uswa hasana, the perfect model, and excellent example for emulation, to kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush (Koran 9.5), and to Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (Koran 9.29).

I hate to rain on your political correct multicultural and apparently naive parade bud, but there is only one way that Islam is interpreted, and that is via the literal word of Allah as contained in the Koran, since the Koran unlike the other holy books – the bible and the torah – hasn’t been corrupted and is considered to be the direct immutable word of Allah as delivered by Allah’s final messenger, Muhammad, and as such is considered to be both perfect and also perfectly just.

Hence, according to Islam our laws are inferior and unjust since they are manmade and fallible by definition, whereas because Sharia emanates direct from Allah, it is thus perfectly just by definition.

Not to mention that this also makes Islam impossible to ever be reformed, because the instant anyone tries to change the interpretation of Islam, for instance to make it more civilized and compatible with Western society, it would be instantly recognized and that person would be declared a blasphemer, and blasphemy is an offense like apostasy in Islam that is punished by death.

No…I’m afraid that Islam unlike Christianity has not undergone a reformation and an enlightenment and is still practiced today the way it was when Muhammad, the uswa hasana, was still rampaging, pillaging, raping, and murdering his way across the Arabian Peninsula slaughtering and killing kafirs almost 1400 years ago.

This was never and will never be a war against Islam. The people we have put in power, Karzai and the new Afghan government, are muslims.

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It is and always has been only about Islam and the sooner you realize and learn that the better off you will be. You could start off by studying the texts, tenants, and history of Islam, the institutions of jihad, and the institutions of dhimmitude.

With regard to Karzai, he is a secular Muslim, as not maintaining your Muslim identity in that part of the world is a sure way to commit suicide. You do have a whole lot of learning to do.

Non-issue. Move along.

WillRockwell said:

they are not, only the fringe Muslims

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Define fringe Muslims?

Because the plan to get OBL was a Clinton plan

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Now that wouldn’t surprise me.

Ask Bush and Cheney

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Yeah Bush and Cheney turned out to be almost as incompetent as Bill Clinton and also almost as liberal.

it is, we just don't admit it

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Which is also exceedingly incompetent.

not to mention almost all of the 9/11 hijackers

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The House of Saud and the Gulf States better known as the Wahhabi Lobby are the lynch pin of the global jihad today. The sooner we eradicate the miserable House of Saud, the sooner the world will be safe.

not for most of the billion Muslims, only for the fringe. Just like America has a fringe of nut cases (we call them Republicans), Muslims also have a rightwing fringe

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Come on dude, the Republicans are almost as liberal and mentally handicapped as the Dhimmicrat Party is today.

Nevertheless, the notion that Islam is a so-called Religion of Peace™ and the extent of the problem consist of a few stragglers that misunderstand Islam is a myth in which the Wahhabi Lobby spends billions of dollars annually to promote and proliferate.

"sealing the borders" is not only not cheap, it is impossible

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Not if we build an adequate fence and patrol it. The anti-terror fence in Israel has stopped 99 percent of all Islamic terrorist attacks inside Israel proper and 100 percent of Islamic terror attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip. It would be 100 percent if they would stop bending to pressure and would finally finish the fence.

Sweden? Ireland? Argentina?

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0"]YouTube - CBN: Malmö, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence[/ame]

Hello Ireland is part of the UK…can you say London 7/7 attacks among many others. Not to mention that our National Directorate and CIA now considers the UK to represent a greater threat for Islamic terrorist attacks than Pakistan and is dedicating approximately 40 percent of our foreign intelligence efforts in the UK.

What about the infamous Islamic terrorist bombing attack on the Jewish Center in Argentina where Iran was fingered as the culprit in 1994, that doesn’t count?

www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/world/americas/18argentina.html

Anyway, thanks for trying!

you are just wrong about this, read a little about Islam

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I’ve already forgot far more about Islam than you will ever come close to knowing. Uhm…you study Islam.

Turbeaux said:

Uhm…that’s what ........

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Happy happy joys when people are educated via the wonderful world of Worldnetdaily university; where people come out even more ignorant than when they came in.

WillRockwell said:

And it was a Republican administration that ****ed up the end game, so cut the new guy a little slack while he tries to sort out the mess.

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I hate to rain on your parade one more time, but abandoning Afghanistan as soon as our mission was complete was the correct thing to do. You see Muslims don't attack us because of what we do. Instead they attack us and the entire non-Islamic world because Islam has a universal mission to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Sharia. Indeed, it's the entire sole purpose of Islam.

In any event, I wish the USA had exited Iraq as soon as Saddam was captured and the country had been scoured for WMD. Of course, Iran and the Sunni states would have gotten sucked into Iraq because of the gigantic vacuum we would have left behind and when they did and while they were totally distracted with imposing their hegemony in Iran, would have been the opportune time to obliterate the Mullahs, hit the IRGC, and eliminate their nuclear weapons program.

Too bad that Bush turned out to be a mentally incompetent political correct multicultural bleeding heart liberal instead of a true conservative.

sam_w said:

Happy happy joys when people are educated via the wonderful world of Worldnetdaily university; where people come out even more ignorant than when they came in.

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Sorry…I haven’t read WND in years. However, if I remember correctly it wasn’t nearly as bad and biased as the Washington Compost, New York Slimes, or the LA Slimes.

Turbeaux said:

Furthermore, the real reason Muslims attack us in case you haven’t heard yet is because of the universal mission of Islam, which is to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Islamic Sharia Law.
Muslims killing Muslims inside the Dar al Islam (domain of belief) is good for the Dar al Harb (domain of disbelief) and very bad for the Dar al Islam. Thus, we should have played them off on each other, then turned around and looked for other cracks and fissures within the camp of Islam to exploit to out advantage.

To the contrary, if you study the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sira (the biography of Muhammad), which together make up the traditions and example of Muhammad, the holy prophet, known compositely as the Sunnah (example), you will find out that Muslims are commanded by the Koran, the Sunnah, and Muhammad, their uswa hasana, the perfect model, and excellent example for emulation, to kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush (Koran 9.5), and to Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (Koran 9.29).

I hate to rain on your political correct multicultural and apparently naive parade bud, but there is only one way that Islam is interpreted, and that is via the literal word of Allah as contained in the Koran, since the Koran unlike the other holy books – the bible and the torah – hasn’t been corrupted and is considered to be the direct immutable word of Allah as delivered by Allah’s final messenger, Muhammad, and as such is considered to be both perfect and also perfectly just.
It is and always has been only about Islam and the sooner you realize and learn that the better off you will be. You could start off by studying the texts, tenants, and history of Islam, the institutions of jihad, and the institutions of dhimmitude.

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You clearly have an anti-Islamic agenda, and your purpose for joining DP was probably to try and spread your hate. I'll start by stating the obvious: There are several sects and interpretations of every religion. Islam is no exception. Religion is a vague thing, and no religion is universal...all are divided, some more than others and some formally while others much more informally. Though extreme interpretations of the religion would like you to think that there was once one, undivided and utopian Islam... that is false. There has been fault lines ever since the religion's creation.

Some Quotes from the Evil Koran:

"If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things." [8:61]

"Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [7:199]

"Whoever kills another one without justifiable cause, surely he is killing all of humanity. And whoever saves the life of another one, surely he saves the lives of all of humanity." [Sura Al Ma'aidah: Ayah 32]

"O unbelievers, I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve, nor am I serving what you have served, neither are you serving what I serve. To you your religion, and to me my religion!"[3:28]

"Verily, for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves, and all men and women who give in charity, and all men and women who keep fast, and all men and women who remember God constantly: For all of them has God prepared forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward" [33:35].

The Great Bible Quotes:

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 - "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

Exodus 35:2 - "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

Psalms 139:7 - "How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock"

I Sam 15:2-3 - "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Luke 19:27 - "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdo24bV_RHE&feature=fvw"]YouTube - Islam in America: Islamic Stars & Stripes - 26 Oct 08 - Pt 4[/ame]

Tubub said:

You clearly have an anti-Islamic agenda, and your purpose for joining DP was probably to try and spread your hate.

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Wow…I regard your spreading hate comment as a personal attack. Indeed, everything I say about Islam is always true and therefore is totally legitimate criticism. Even though Muslims have been mounting worldwide campaigns to make all criticism of religion illegal, which would leave us absolutely defenseless.

It is also the reason why I’m also very much against the three hate crimes bills the useful idiot dupe Dhimmicrats are currently trying to pass in Congress, since inevitably the Muslims, which are very adept at exploiting our freedoms and laws against us, would inevitably use those hate crime laws if they are enacted to shut down all legitimate criticism of Islam cold.

Irrespective of your personal attack upon me because obviously you can’t refute the message, if you can prove me wrong on anything I say regarding Islam I will apologize to you and indeed the entire forum, and also promise never to discuss Islam again. Otherwise, you will just have to learn that I have a very thick skin and personal attacks don’t bother me and in reality reflect on you and your ignorance.

There are several sects and interpretations of every religion. Islam is no exception. Religion is a vague thing, and no religion is universal...all are divided, some more than others and some formally while others much more informally. Though extreme interpretations of the religion would like you to think that there was once one, undivided and utopian Islam... that is false. There has been fault lines ever since the religion's creation.

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I never said nor have I ever insinuated that Islam is monolithic and I recognize that there are numerous sects and divisions within Islam. However, the ulema of all 4 major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, which encompasses all the various sects of Islam, unanimously agree on the universal mission of Islam, which is to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Sharia. They also unanimously agree on the universal obligation for jihad.

Some Quotes from the Evil Koran The Great Bible Quotes

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You know when I see someone attempting to morally equate the Koran with the Old Testament I laugh because I know automatically right off the bat that I’m dealing with someone that is completely ignorant of the text and tenants of Islam and how those text and tenants are interpreted. Thus, no wonder you are resorting to personally attacking me, you don’t have the first clue about what you are talking about.

Not to mention that the peaceful Meccan verses that you are citing have all been abrogated (replaced), per the principle of abrogation – al-naskh wa al-mansukh – the abrogating and the abrogated, by the later Medinan verses.

You see when Muhammad lived in Medina he was a peaceful man but a very unsuccessful holy prophet. However, after the Hirja, Muhammad’s migration to Medina because he was run out of Mecca for being a nuisance when his influential uncle died, Muhammad became a vicious bloodthirsty terrorist and started raiding Meccan caravans, before he turned on the kafirs (non-Muslims) and especially the Jews, and even the Jews that had gave him permission to settle down in Medina.

As a matter of fact, it was not until after the Hirja, Muhammad’s migration to Medina, that the real Islam developed, and in Islam today the later verses issued by Muhammed always abrogate (supercede) the earlier verses of the Koran and especially the early Meccan verses. Indeed, the Koran itself lays out the principle of obligation:

2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Additionally, this distinction between Muhammad’s life in Mecca and his life in Medina when Muhammad was a very ruthless terrorist is so profound that the Hirja (migration), which occurred in 622 CE, marks the start of the Islamic calendar and the beginning of Islam.

Furthermore, those same exact peaceful Meccan verses that you are citing are the same exact verses that Muslims practicing taqiyya (deception) always inevitably cite to exploit the ignorance of useful idiot dupe kafirs (non-Muslims).

In any event, Muslims committing acts of Islamic terrorism today around the world always justify their attacks by quoting specific verses of the Koran, the Hadith (sayings and traditions of the prophet), and the Sira (the biography of Muhammad).

How many Christians in the world today do you see committing acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity that are also citing Old Testament verses to justify their vile acts? The answer is zero.

You want to know why? It’s because the Old Testament verses applied to a specific time and place and against a specific enemy. While the Koranic verses and ahadith are universal and are valid for all time.

Thus, when you attempt to draw a silly moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity, I have to laugh because it unequivocally indicates that you are a novice when it comes to Islam to say the very least.

Nevertheless, to give you a good example of how the Koran is interpreted, take the infamous verse of the sword:

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

That single verse alone, which was one of the last verses Muhammad issued, abrogates (supersedes) more than 120 peaceful Meccan verses, including all the same ones that you ignorantly posted because apparently some taqiyya practicing Muslims somehow exploited your naivety and ignorance and deceived you.

As for as your very misleading YouTube video goes, not only is it hilarious, it’s taqiyya and very misleading too. It was probably paid for with Wahhabi Lobby money.

The reality is Muslims don’t immigrate to assimilate and integrate, instead they migrate to one day replace our constitution with the Koran and to impose Sharia upon kafirs.

Indeed, look all around the world everywhere Muslims have immigrated, can you point to a single country where Muslims have assimilated and integrated and become productive and contributing members of the society instead of an unmitigated disaster?

Of course, it goes without saying that the smaller the population of Muslims and the more recent the immigration, the more peaceful the Muslims. Nevertheless, as that immigration continues in due time and the more the percentage of Muslims relative to the non-Muslim population increases, the more and more emboldened the Muslims become.

In any event, to see what will inevitably happen if the Muslims ever manage to gain the upper hand, just take a look inside the Islamic world today at how the non-Muslim dhimmis are very harshly treated, oppressed, and often killed for no reason at all, other than they weren’t Muslims. Study the Coptic Christians of Egypt and what is happening to the Chaldean Christians in Iraq today.

MrVicchio said:

Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan - Political News - FOXNews.com

I'm sorry, we're not there for victory, just to.. keep Al-quada from attacking us again...

Our President just admitted he doesn't want Victory, he's ashamed of defeating our enemies... What a freaking moron.

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This proves Obama is not American, he's half Kenyan and half French. :lol:

I think its corrupting the meaning of the original statement to say that Obama is not pursuing victory in Afghanistan. He's trying to make a point about how the traditional definition of "victory" is something that doesn't define the range of missions and goals that something like the situation in Afghanistan calls for. Like he said, he does not want to bring up images of the surrender on the USS Missouri because that's not going to happen.
I completely agree with him. The mission, as a whole, in Afghanistan is much more about politics, economics, culture, than it is about military conflict. While eliminating the need for military operations in Afghanistan is certainly a victory and a step in the right direction, that goal cannot be accomplished by military means alone.
Even in more "traditional" wars and missions, like WW2 and afterwards, things like politics and economics played a huge and vital role. However unlike WW2 or most wars in the past, the "order of business" so to speak isn't as clear. In WW2 the order was clear, first the mission was almost exclusively militarily focused, and then switched to being much more about politics and economics abruptly and very clearly. In other words WW2 had clear breaks between when the mission was mostly military, economic/political one. So while the US was officially at war with the Axis, the mission was nearly 100% military and once the war was officially over it became nearly 100% economic/political(Rebuilding Europe/Japan, dealing with the USSR, etc).
In Afghanistan there are no clear time periods when the mission was primarily either military or economic/political. And the solution to that conflict requires that all three be dealt with at the same time and in conjugation. And unlike WW2 there will be no V-E or V-J day.

Turbeaux said:

Wow…I regard your spreading hate comment as a personal attack. Indeed, everything I say about Islam is always true and therefore is totally legitimate criticism. blah blah...blah...The reality is Muslims don’t immigrate to assimilate and integrate, instead they migrate to one day replace our constitution with the Koran and to impose Sharia upon kafirs. .

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I made the mistake of trying to hold a dialogue with you, not noticing you only came to this forum to spread racism. You are not welcome here, divisive though we are, no one at this place welcomes your message of intolerance and ignorance. Your seeds of hatred will not grow here. Go away.:2wave:

WillRockwell said:

This is the question you've been repeating over and over. If it made any sense I might try to answer it. As it is, there is clearly no Right Answer.

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Absolutley correct, there is no such thing as a right answer, when you are using double talk in regards to "non-victory"...


Thank you for your concession.

WillRockwell said:

Your nation, led by irresponsible, privileged rich boys who never served in the military, put Americans at risk in Iraq with no plan for "victory" and no hope of resolution. So don't talk to me about "whiny liberals" or your manly Republican patriotism. You started a war in Afghanistan that you walked away from , then started another in Iraq which cannot be "won". Your side blew it...again....leaving the rest of us to clean up your mess. Next time you feel like acting manly, go watch a Rambo movie.

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couple things...


1. when and where did you serve?


2. Obama says victory is not needed.... Why are you harping on "victory" when it suits you?

Turbeaux said:

Exactly how did we screw up the end game?

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We left the place in shambles. We funded the Muju's war against the Soviets, defeted them and walked off. We left a perfect environment for the crazies to work with. It's the same thing that happened in Germany after WW1.

WillRockwell said:

And it was a Republican administration that ****ed up the end game, so cut the new guy a little slack while he tries to sort out the mess.

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It was a Democrat Congress that wouldn't authorize funding to rebuild the country, so let's keep things in perspective. Read, "Charlie Wilson's War", sometime--the book, not the movie. It'll educational. I promise.

sam_w said:

Let us not forget that there ARE literally tens of millions of Muslims who do NOT hate America. I just watched a series hosted on Al Jazeera called Islam in America that was very enlightening to show how Muslims have thrived in the U.S., and are in fact very patriotic. We have nations from Morocco to Turkey to Indonesia that hosts populations that are far more interested in being close to the U.S. than burning flags.

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There were millions of Nazis that didn't hate America.

It's always puzzled me how there can be so many Muslims that love America and hate the extremists, yet they don't seem to be able to put and end to the extremism. I have my own theory as to why that's so, but I'm told that I'm wrong, but no one can explain it to me.

WillRockwell said:

And it was a Republican administration that ****ed up the end game, so cut the new guy a little slack while he tries to sort out the mess.

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While He tries to sort out the mess.. by doing and saying the same things that GWB did and said.

But then, The Obama has a (D) next to His name, so that's all -you- need to know.

WillRockwell said:

I made the mistake of trying to hold a dialogue with you, not noticing you only came to this forum to spread racism. You are not welcome here, divisive though we are, no one at this place welcomes your message of intolerance and ignorance. Your seeds of hatred will not grow here. Go away.:2wave:

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Your silly accusation is another very typical response from a liberal who because he can’t refute the message resorts to personally attacking the messenger by labeling him a racist and by also accusing him of spreading hate. In other words, since you can’t rebut my messages with facts or evidence that contradict them you simply try to impugn my character by labeling me a racist. How so very typical of you! It’s like some of you guys are walking talking zombies. Indeed, it is so uncanny how you all react in the same exact very stereotypical way and use the same amateurish and boorish tactics.

In any event, how can I be a racist since Islam includes all races and Muslims consist of all races? Indeed, by you labeling me a racist without presenting an ounce of facts to back up your silly allegation, you have confirmed and demonstrated at the same time that your level of knowledge with respect to Islam is below that of a rank novice. Yet, because my message runs so counter to what you have been inculcated to believe, you react impulsively by personally attacking the messenger in a feeble attempt to marginalize the message. However, I’m afraid your personal attack backfired on you, as you ended up only marginalizing yourself by demonstrating that you don’t even have the first clue.

In any event, it’s okay buddy, as I have a very thick skin and since my skin is so thick, I don’t mind the personal attacks. At least I know where you stand on an intellectual capacity level basis.

Nevertheless, because my criticisms of Islam are all true, they can only be construed as being legitimate criticism. Thus, I have to ask you what do you have against criticism when it is true and legitimate?

Are you for putting Islam up on a pedestal and for making it beyond reproach, unlike Christianity and Judaism that are both routinely very viciously vilified and illegitimately attacked in the most vile ways on a regular basis in our society today, and do you also support the censure of speech, legitimate or otherwise, only when it comes to Islam? Obviously, you must!

In any event, if you can prove anything I have ever said regarding Islam is not true and therefore not legitimate criticism, then I will gladly apologize to you and any other person I have inadvertently offended and promise to never bring up the issue of Islam again. That is, of course, only if you can prove that what I say about Islam is not true and thus constitutes illegitimate criticism. However, please excuse me if I don’t hold my breath waiting.

apdst said:

We left the place in shambles. We funded the Muju's war against the Soviets, defeted them and walked off. We left a perfect environment for the crazies to work with. It's the same thing that happened in Germany after WW1.

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And if we'd stayed, all the whiners of the world would be complaining about US imperialism.

We made an agreement to help Afghanland get rid of the Soviets.

We fulfilled that agreement.

People really need to stop whining that (a) we're not the police force of the world and (b) we didn't police Afghanistan.

Turbeaux said:

I hate to rain on your parade one more time, but abandoning Afghanistan as soon as our mission was complete was the correct thing to do. You see Muslims don't attack us because of what we do. Instead they attack us and the entire non-Islamic world because Islam has a universal mission to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Sharia. Indeed, it's the entire sole purpose of Islam.

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Right.

Turbeaux said:

In any event, I wish the USA had exited Iraq as soon as Saddam was captured and the country had been scoured for WMD. Of course, Iran and the Sunni states would have gotten sucked into Iraq because of the gigantic vacuum we would have left behind and when they did and while they were totally distracted with imposing their hegemony in Iran, would have been the opportune time to obliterate the Mullahs, hit the IRGC, and eliminate their nuclear weapons program.

Too bad that Bush turned out to be a mentally incompetent political correct multicultural bleeding heart liberal instead of a true conservative.

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Gotta remember what buffoons we send to Washington these days. I don't think your plan would have worked even if we'd had the right people in office. to many uncontrolled factors.

Your heart's in the right place, though.

apdst said:

We left the place in shambles. We funded the Muju's war against the Soviets, defeted them and walked off. We left a perfect environment for the crazies to work with. It's the same thing that happened in Germany after WW1.

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Why was the country being in shambles our fault? It was the Soviets that invaded Afghanistan and not the USA. If anything it is them who owe us a debt of gratitude for aiding, supporting, abetting, and helping them to oust the Soviets.

Indeed, it was a win-win proposition for both of us. They got what they wanted, the ouster of the Soviet occupiers, and we got to use them as proxies against our former enemy the Soviets.

We had no obligation to rebuild what was an already very backwards country to begin with that we had no hand in creating, and neither would the Muslims have welcomed the American kafirs had we attempted, as they would have also regarded us as foreign occupiers exactly like they viewed the Soviets, and exactly as we are viewed over there today.

Finally, who and what are the crazies? Muslims are not crazy. They just think and act completely different from the way we Westerners think and act. Study Islam and you will soon find out what I’m talking about.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Gotta remember what buffoons we send to Washington these days.

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I couldn't agree with you more, but unfortunately I don't see anyone today that at least in public demonstrates that he or she has the first clue.

I don't think your plan would have worked even if we'd had the right people in office. to many uncontrolled factors.

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Could you please elaborate more on why you don’t think “my plan” wouldn’t have work?

Now before you do, let me elaborate on my plan a little bit more for you. If I had been in charge instead of Bush, besides the aforementioned, I would have teamed up with our loyal ally Israel and at the same time we were taking care of business in Iran via air power and Special Forces alone, Israel would have also been very busy eradicating Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, the Hezbos, etc. and Iran’s poodle Syria. Of course, we would have also militarily and logistically supported Israel in this endeavor as well.

Then subsequent to the elimination of the aforementioned threats, we would have teamed up to eliminate the House of Saud, which is the lynch pin of the global jihad today. We would have also given a very stern warning to the Gulf States emirates to cease and desist their support for the global jihad unless they want to face the same exact fate as the Saudis.

Finally, we would have concluded our actions with the confiscation and subsequent disposal of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons arsenal and also the destruction of their nuclear program.

Therefore, with no more OPEC oil money funding the global jihad anymore, the Dar al Islam would have had no choice other than to suspend their perpetual jihad.

With respect to who would have gained control of the countries in which the terrorist regimes were ousted, I could care less and neither is that any of our business. I highly doubt though that whoever subsequently rose to power would want to face the same exact fate as their predecessors.

With respect to inevitable sectarian jihads between Sunni and Shi’a and any other cracks and fissures within the Dar al Islam, that would be a good thing for the Dar al Harb and a bad thing for the Dar al Islam since it would serve to weaken the camp of Islam. If anything else, I would look for more cracks and fissures inside the Dar al Islam to exploit and keep stoking the ones already stoked.

Regarding possible oil disruptions, I highly doubt they would ever occur since oil is the lifeline of the region and only source of revenue, since other than bloodshed and lots and lots of misery, Muslims are totally incapable of producing anything on their own without the aid and assistance of kafirs, and thus they would be forced to keep the spigots wide open to rebuild the destruction we left behind as deterrence.

Therefore, because the spigots would be wide open, the obvious price manipulation of oil that we faced during last year’s elections to intentionally influence our election in favor of Obama and the Dhimmicrats and to also weaken our economy via stealth economic jihad would not be able to occur anymore and thus we would all also enjoy much lower oil prices as a result with resulting stronger economic growth.

However, the last thing I would have done would have been to foolishly occupy a Muslim country to pursue a silly fantasy based nation-building mission like Bush did in both Iraq and Afghanistan since that is a fool’s errand predestined to fail since it is premised on a myth.

Finally, in addition to the aforementioned, I would have also advocated a complete disengagement of the West from Islam, because Islam has a universal mission to make the world sovereign for Allah and is therefore completely incompatible with the West.

Quote: Originally Posted by Truth Detector
What part of my assertions was specifically extreme? You're a Democrat, but my comments specifically were directed at Liberals regardless of their political affiliations.

It is a general assertion, but fits about 98.5% of the Liberals who spend a great deal of time ranting in a vacuum of the facts and realities; Disney dude makes my case.

What portion of my comments was "partisan" specifically?

So what you are saying is that we are in agreement therefore it begs the question, what is the point of your response to my comments to Laila, a rabid uninformed Liberal who makes farcical comments in a vacuum of reality and the facts?

I would love to see where MY statements or any Republicans have made this claim. Of course you will not find it, but it apparently is your OPINION and your PERCEPTIONS which I assure you are false and not supported by facts.

tlmorg02 said:

How can you possibly make a blanket assertion that 98.5% of Liberals fit your given description, without a shred of evidence, other than your opinion, and then act as if I offended you?

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I perfectly willing to see your "evidence" to the contrary. The evidence supporting my statement, albeit the percentage was unscientific, is supported by TONS of valid evidence in any editorial, magazine article and comments by the rabid liberals who infest this forum.

tlmorg02 said:

…. and then act as if I offended you?

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What part of my comments suggests I was offended? Once again we see a lot of perception and projection, but very little in the way of facts.

tlmorg02 said:

As to the last claim you make, did I say that it was claimed? No, I said that in reading the posts on this forum on the subject, most conservatives act as though they are the only ones who understand what is needed to protect this country, and that those on the other end of the political spectrum are naive, fairy people who would be lost if it were not for the conservatives protecting this country. I say that such assertions are mere partisan rhetoric with no proof whatsoever to back it up.

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I am going to type this slowly so that you can follow along, this is a claim:

“most conservatives act as though they are the only ones who understand what is needed to protect this country, and that those on the other end of the political spectrum are naive, fairy people who would be lost if it were not for the conservatives protecting this country. “

Was that clear enough for you?

tlmorg02 said:

Regardless, I am not here to argue who is best fit to protect this nation. Whether it be with the sword or negotiation and alliances, I feel that all views of every side are relevant, as that is the only way in this nation we can percieve the full picture, rather than a view through colored lenses of one party over the other. Iraq is no exception. Many feel that it never should have happened, and I am sure you will even admit there were mistakes made that we should learn from. In the end we should all pull together and focus on how to ensure that this endeavor succeed, for nothing could fight terror better, than a functional democracy in a region rid with tyranny.

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Here is the only area we perhaps disagree with on the above comments; after the decision was made to put our young men and women in danger and it was by a vast majority on BOTH sides of the aisle, the time for debate and hyperbolic BS ended and the time to fully support the effort regardless of political persuasion or feelings began.

My comments are specifically directed at the Librul Democrat politicians, in particular ingrates like Kerry, who voted FOR the war and then did a 180 degree turnaround for political expediency. Kerry is as low and despicable as one can go as a politician and Hillary was closely following behind once she shed her fear of looking like a hypocrite.

As for this statement;

“and I am sure you will even admit there were mistakes made that we should learn from. “

Absolutely, and there is a productive NON-Partisan way to pursue this. But this is NOT what we saw for almost 6 years or are seeing from the Librul Democrats now who voted FOR the war before they were AGAINST it, and those like Pelosi who sat through CIA briefings and claimed that it never occurred to them to ask any questions or evaluate the reasons they were being briefed.

:2wave:

apdst said:

We left the place in shambles. We funded the Muju's war against the Soviets, defeted them and walked off. We left a perfect environment for the crazies to work with. It's the same thing that happened in Germany after WW1.

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"WE" did nothing of what you claim. Yes we may have assisted the Taliban in their efforts to remove the shackles of Soviet Empire building by sending arms, money and intelligence perhaps, but the notion that we left anything is slightly bizarre.

We didn't "leave" anything as "WE" were never "there."

Truth Detector said:

Nothing can frighten a Socialist more than the TRUTH; and nothing can frighten Obama more than REALITY

OBAMA; One Big Ass Mistake America

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With respect to your tag line, I agree the problem is Obama’s principles are divorced from reality and he is irresponsive and impervious to facts that contradict them.:mrgreen: