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Thread: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, we didn't. Mahssoud's forces were picked as the elite of all the mujas fighting in Afghanistan. They numbered about 130,000 strong. The money was directed to those fighters, however, because the money didn't pass directly from our hands to Mahssoud's hands, some of the money and weapons were side tracked to the dudes that later made up the ranks of the Taliban. So, yes, using the Pak intel services was a mistake, but we had to have Pakistan's help to smuggle the weapons into Afghanistan, so we had to play a little ball with them.
    There was no general fund for all the mujas to dip into like a grab bag. That myth has been proported for way too long. Being historically minded as you are, you should read "Charlie Wilson's War". Tons of specific first hand info about how it all went down.
    You should read Steve Coll's book Ghost Wars. I've seen the book on shelves, and have thought about checking it out... Does it really go into detail about the operation or is there a lot of bs about him as a person?

    I never said anything about a "grab bag", I just stated the facts. Washington didn't even know who Massoud was until later on... I mean, the CIA operation had existed since 1979 and the Congress didn't get seriously involved until much later, something like 1984. By that time, I believe we had singled out Massoud as the most effective freedom fighter... Elite? I don't think I would call it that.

    Well, they didn't know. Using the ISI at the time seemed like a small price to pay to deliver a defeat to the Soviet Union... the endgame is really what we ****ed up.
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-28-09 at 10:52 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    No.

    WE did OUR part just fine.

    The Afghanis...THEY ****ed up.

    Damn I wish you people would stop blaming the United States for every hangnail in the world.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Too complicated and runs too much against the mainstream of the dominant surrender monkey political ideology embraced by both major parties.

    Personally, I'm all for telling nations that harbor terrorists that it's going to snow cobalt-60 and strontium-90 at sundown. But it's not politically viable no matter how morally correct.



    One word against your proposal:

    Manpower.

    And lack thereoff.
    My plan actually required very little manpower since as I mentioned Im totally against occupying Muslim countries period and would have let airpower and Special Operations do the heavy lifting. Indeed, my plan would have taken far less manpower that we dedicated to the needless occupation of Iraq.

    I mean these Islamic states are for the most part weak basket cases. Not to mention that my plan, had it been implemented would have concluded by the end of 2004 if not sooner, we never would have needlessly squandered away over $1 trillion dollars, and nearly as many American lives.

    Anyway, its too late now.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbeaux View Post
    My plan actually required very little manpower since as I mentioned Im totally against occupying Muslim countries period and would have let airpower and Special Operations do the heavy lifting. Indeed, my plan would have taken far less manpower that we dedicated to the needless occupation of Iraq.

    I mean these Islamic states are for the most part weak basket cases. Not to mention that my plan, had it been implemented would have concluded by the end of 2004 if not sooner, we never would have needlessly squandered away over $1 trillion dollars, and nearly as many American lives.

    Anyway, its too late now.
    Yet your arrogant and ruthless policies would've lead to more anti-americanism. Your amoral views of civilian lives would've only promoted our enemies and encouraged fence-sitters and potential allies to turn to the other side. You don't just **** up somebody's **** and expect them not to care. You'll be creating more enemies than your defeating and costing the Free World the upper hand. Moral superiority is one of our greatest advantages, losing that in Iraq in 2004 was one of our greatest defeats and you seem to be taking that overly-agressive outlook 10 steps further.

    And as for Scarecrow, generalizing Afghanis is not something anyone should do... There are many that would've been against a theocratic government in their country. Now, I am not blaming the US for what the Taliban did, all I am saying is that we should've done better in the endgame of the Civil War during the early 90s in order to promote a better Afghanistan that could've prevented its use as a terrorist safe haven(ie the madrassas were an Afghanis only form of education, radicalizing much of the populace.)

    I can relate your view to libertarian ones because they fail to see the big picture. Sure... kill Osama Bin Laden and other key leaders and damage their organizations. That will win us the day...this day anyway. But what about tomorrow? What about the day after that? This is a global world. Anybody that tries to sit in their little bubbles and give themselves an illusion of security is asking for one thing, and that is a larger war in the near future. One where we very may well be approached by more powerful and potent forces. What happens on the other side of the world matters here... actually, it is that side of the world that matters most because it is so unrestive and prime for Islamist forces that can foster and prepare attacks on us. It is not just amoral to standby or leave prematurely, it is an unwise long-term foreign policy.

    How do we defeat Islamist forces? Do we just stoop in and kill a few then leave? I mean, nobody is arguing against killing OBL and defeating Al Qaida... but obviously it has not been that simple. So the plan your proposing is similar to what I've heard before: Blow a bunch of crap up and kill a bunch of people then get the hell out... Then we will surely fit the definition of "The Great Satan".

    It is not just amoral to standby or leave prematurely, it is an unwise long-term foreign policy.
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-29-09 at 05:14 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
    -TR

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    "WE" did nothing of what you claim. Yes we may have assisted the Taliban in their efforts to remove the shackles of Soviet Empire building by sending arms, money and intelligence perhaps, but the notion that we left anything is slightly bizarre.
    The Taliban did not fight the Soviets. They did not exist until 1992 or so.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Obamamama is more appropriatley suited to be president of the country he was born in, not the United States of America.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The Taliban did not fight the Soviets. They did not exist until 1992 or so.
    I stand corrected on the term "Taliban", but not on the analogy. I should have typed Mujahideen I guess.
    Last edited by Truth Detector; 07-29-09 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Yet your arrogant and ruthless policies would've lead to more anti-americanism. Your amoral views of civilian lives would've only promoted our enemies and encouraged fence-sitters and potential allies to turn to the other side. You don't just **** up somebody's **** and expect them not to care. You'll be creating more enemies than your defeating and costing the Free World the upper hand. Moral superiority is one of our greatest advantages, losing that in Iraq in 2004 was one of our greatest defeats and you seem to be taking that overly-agressive outlook 10 steps further.
    I am assuming you are claiming we lost the moral plane here; so this begs the question, what did we do to lose that? (I am equally unsure which tactic you agree with either)

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I am assuming you are claiming we lost the moral plane here; so this begs the question, what did we do to lose that? (I am equally unsure which tactic you agree with either)
    Abu Ghraib

    Damge to US image worldwide
    "The reputation of the United States of America has been affected by the war in Iraq, [and especially] because of Abu Ghraib [prison abuses]," Kaba said.
    An excerpt from the book No True Glory: A Frontline Account of the Battle of Fallujah by Bing West
    Quote Originally Posted by Bing West
    Fallujah became the rallying point for anti-Coalition anger. Among Iraqis, vehement shouts of support for besieged Fallujah released simmering resentments about power outages, day-long lines for propane and gasoline, drive-by shootings, and random, dreaded suicided car bombings. Pent-up anger burst forth about foreign occupiers who shot at cars at vehicle checkpoints, rammed their armored vehicles through thick traffic, and ransacked homes at three in the morning. Iraqi men from all walks of life--students, laborers, doctors, policemen, shop owners--flocked to the mosques to exchange passionate denunciations of the infidel occupiers

    Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya were unrelenting in broadcasting the plight of the civilians in Fallujah, while the Internet amplified the message of Marine callousness and sped protests around the world on a minute-by-minute basis. On the Google search engine, during the month of April, the word Fallujah leaped from 700 to 175,000 stories, many highly critical of the Marines. Quantity had a spurious quality of its own, resulting in an erroneous certitude based on the sheer volume of repetition.

    The reports filed by Western journalists embedded with the Marines did not support the allegations of widespread, indiscriminate carnage. Senior U.S. government officials, though, didn't have time to peruse tactical reporting. Instead, in their offices they turned on cable news, where video clips from Fallujah were shown over and over again. The images, obtained from a pool that included the Jazeera cameraman inside the city, affected viewers in Iraq, in Washington, and in Crawford, Texas....

    ...Similarily[To the Tet Offensive in Vietnam and the biased reporting by American journalists on the event], the initial impression, created by Al Jazeera, of massive civilian casualities became the accepted storyline about Fallujah. Because entering the city meant capture and beheading, the Western TV networks pooled video shot in Fallujah by Arab cameramen who were approved for entry by the insurgents. Predictably, the pictures stressed destruction and death, although the Western networks could not corroborate the scale of the damage. Lacking any other sources, most major U.S. newspaper and television outlets worldwide repeated the estimates cited in the Arab press based on the allegations of Iraq and Jordanian doctors in Fallujah, arriving at an unsubstantiated consensus figure of more than six hundred dead and a thousand wounded.

    "Al Jazeera is lying," said Brigadier General John Kelly, the assistant division commander.(No True Glory 92-93)
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-29-09 at 04:58 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
    -TR

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Abu Ghraib

    Damge to US image worldwide


    An excerpt from the book No True Glory: A Frontline Account of the Battle of Fallujah by Bing West
    Both of these events were excuses made by terrorist zealots to foment purposeless violence and fanned by flame of Global Liberal media frenzies.

    The sad part is how Liberals and Democrats used this for political gain which merely empowered the enemy and encouraged them to continue murdering innocents; this is of course my opinion grounded in common sense and reality.


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