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Thread: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    We supported the mujihadeen in the 1980s order to defeat the Soviet Union.(We actually screwed up the game generally since we funneled funds through the ISI, who used the oppurtunity to support rebels that they favored... usually militant Islamists.). Afterwards, we forgot about Afghanistan all together and allowed the cards to fall where they may in the country.
    Uhm…that’s what I figured you would say. In the 80s we did exactly what we should have done. That is use the Mujahideen as a proxy to bleed our enemy the Soviets dry and then leave as soon as our mission was accomplished, and since Muslims don’t attack us or wage jihad against us because of what we do, when we exited Afghanistan that was the correct thing to do.

    Furthermore, the real reason Muslims attack us in case you haven’t heard yet is because of the universal mission of Islam, which is to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Islamic Sharia Law.

    Thus, in 2001 had our leaders not been so blinded by multicultural political correctness, they wouldn’t have betrayed the trust of the America people by miserably failing to study the texts, tenants, and history of Islam, and instead of jumping into the middle of a civil war, they would have aided the losing side, in that case the Northern Alliance, so that the jihad between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban would have lasted and endured as long as possible, while at the same time they also would have targeted and obliterated OBL and AQ.

    Muslims killing Muslims inside the Dar al Islam (domain of belief) is good for the Dar al Harb (domain of disbelief) and very bad for the Dar al Islam. Thus, we should have played them off on each other, then turned around and looked for other cracks and fissures within the camp of Islam to exploit to out advantage.

    Btw, no where in Islam texts does it say anything about killing Americans. That is a radical interpretation of Islam...
    To the contrary, if you study the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sira (the biography of Muhammad), which together make up the traditions and example of Muhammad, the holy prophet, known compositely as the Sunnah (example), you will find out that Muslims are commanded by the Koran, the Sunnah, and Muhammad, their uswa hasana, the perfect model, and excellent example for emulation, to kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush (Koran 9.5), and to Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (Koran 9.29).

    I hate to rain on your political correct multicultural and apparently naive parade bud, but there is only one way that Islam is interpreted, and that is via the literal word of Allah as contained in the Koran, since the Koran unlike the other holy books – the bible and the torah – hasn’t been corrupted and is considered to be the direct immutable word of Allah as delivered by Allah’s final messenger, Muhammad, and as such is considered to be both perfect and also perfectly just.

    Hence, according to Islam our laws are inferior and unjust since they are manmade and fallible by definition, whereas because Sharia emanates direct from Allah, it is thus perfectly just by definition.

    Not to mention that this also makes Islam impossible to ever be reformed, because the instant anyone tries to change the interpretation of Islam, for instance to make it more civilized and compatible with Western society, it would be instantly recognized and that person would be declared a blasphemer, and blasphemy is an offense like apostasy in Islam that is punished by death.

    No…I’m afraid that Islam unlike Christianity has not undergone a reformation and an enlightenment and is still practiced today the way it was when Muhammad, the uswa hasana, was still rampaging, pillaging, raping, and murdering his way across the Arabian Peninsula slaughtering and killing kafirs almost 1400 years ago.

    This was never and will never be a war against Islam. The people we have put in power, Karzai and the new Afghan government, are muslims.
    It is and always has been only about Islam and the sooner you realize and learn that the better off you will be. You could start off by studying the texts, tenants, and history of Islam, the institutions of jihad, and the institutions of dhimmitude.

    With regard to Karzai, he is a secular Muslim, as not maintaining your Muslim identity in that part of the world is a sure way to commit suicide. You do have a whole lot of learning to do.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Non-issue. Move along.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    they are not, only the fringe Muslims
    Define fringe Muslims?

    Because the plan to get OBL was a Clinton plan
    Now that wouldn’t surprise me.


    Ask Bush and Cheney
    Yeah Bush and Cheney turned out to be almost as incompetent as Bill Clinton and also almost as liberal.

    it is, we just don't admit it
    Which is also exceedingly incompetent.

    not to mention almost all of the 9/11 hijackers
    The House of Saud and the Gulf States better known as the Wahhabi Lobby are the lynch pin of the global jihad today. The sooner we eradicate the miserable House of Saud, the sooner the world will be safe.

    not for most of the billion Muslims, only for the fringe. Just like America has a fringe of nut cases (we call them Republicans), Muslims also have a rightwing fringe
    Come on dude, the Republicans are almost as liberal and mentally handicapped as the Dhimmicrat Party is today.

    Nevertheless, the notion that Islam is a so-called Religion of Peace™ and the extent of the problem consist of a few stragglers that misunderstand Islam is a myth in which the Wahhabi Lobby spends billions of dollars annually to promote and proliferate.

    "sealing the borders" is not only not cheap, it is impossible
    Not if we build an adequate fence and patrol it. The anti-terror fence in Israel has stopped 99 percent of all Islamic terrorist attacks inside Israel proper and 100 percent of Islamic terror attacks emanating from the Gaza Strip. It would be 100 percent if they would stop bending to pressure and would finally finish the fence.

    Sweden? Ireland? Argentina?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0"]YouTube - CBN: Malmö, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence[/ame]

    Hello Ireland is part of the UK…can you say London 7/7 attacks among many others. Not to mention that our National Directorate and CIA now considers the UK to represent a greater threat for Islamic terrorist attacks than Pakistan and is dedicating approximately 40 percent of our foreign intelligence efforts in the UK.

    What about the infamous Islamic terrorist bombing attack on the Jewish Center in Argentina where Iran was fingered as the culprit in 1994, that doesn’t count?

    www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/world/americas/18argentina.html

    Anyway, thanks for trying!

    you are just wrong about this, read a little about Islam
    I’ve already forgot far more about Islam than you will ever come close to knowing. Uhm…you study Islam.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbeaux View Post
    Uhm…that’s what ........
    Happy happy joys when people are educated via the wonderful world of Worldnetdaily university; where people come out even more ignorant than when they came in.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    And it was a Republican administration that ****ed up the end game, so cut the new guy a little slack while he tries to sort out the mess.

    I hate to rain on your parade one more time, but abandoning Afghanistan as soon as our mission was complete was the correct thing to do. You see Muslims don't attack us because of what we do. Instead they attack us and the entire non-Islamic world because Islam has a universal mission to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Sharia. Indeed, it's the entire sole purpose of Islam.

    In any event, I wish the USA had exited Iraq as soon as Saddam was captured and the country had been scoured for WMD. Of course, Iran and the Sunni states would have gotten sucked into Iraq because of the gigantic vacuum we would have left behind and when they did and while they were totally distracted with imposing their hegemony in Iran, would have been the opportune time to obliterate the Mullahs, hit the IRGC, and eliminate their nuclear weapons program.

    Too bad that Bush turned out to be a mentally incompetent political correct multicultural bleeding heart liberal instead of a true conservative.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by sam_w View Post
    Happy happy joys when people are educated via the wonderful world of Worldnetdaily university; where people come out even more ignorant than when they came in.
    Sorry…I haven’t read WND in years. However, if I remember correctly it wasn’t nearly as bad and biased as the Washington Compost, New York Slimes, or the LA Slimes.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbeaux View Post
    Furthermore, the real reason Muslims attack us in case you haven’t heard yet is because of the universal mission of Islam, which is to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Islamic Sharia Law.
    Muslims killing Muslims inside the Dar al Islam (domain of belief) is good for the Dar al Harb (domain of disbelief) and very bad for the Dar al Islam. Thus, we should have played them off on each other, then turned around and looked for other cracks and fissures within the camp of Islam to exploit to out advantage.

    To the contrary, if you study the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sira (the biography of Muhammad), which together make up the traditions and example of Muhammad, the holy prophet, known compositely as the Sunnah (example), you will find out that Muslims are commanded by the Koran, the Sunnah, and Muhammad, their uswa hasana, the perfect model, and excellent example for emulation, to kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush (Koran 9.5), and to Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (Koran 9.29).

    I hate to rain on your political correct multicultural and apparently naive parade bud, but there is only one way that Islam is interpreted, and that is via the literal word of Allah as contained in the Koran, since the Koran unlike the other holy books – the bible and the torah – hasn’t been corrupted and is considered to be the direct immutable word of Allah as delivered by Allah’s final messenger, Muhammad, and as such is considered to be both perfect and also perfectly just.
    It is and always has been only about Islam and the sooner you realize and learn that the better off you will be. You could start off by studying the texts, tenants, and history of Islam, the institutions of jihad, and the institutions of dhimmitude.

    You clearly have an anti-Islamic agenda, and your purpose for joining DP was probably to try and spread your hate. I'll start by stating the obvious: There are several sects and interpretations of every religion. Islam is no exception. Religion is a vague thing, and no religion is universal...all are divided, some more than others and some formally while others much more informally. Though extreme interpretations of the religion would like you to think that there was once one, undivided and utopian Islam... that is false. There has been fault lines ever since the religion's creation.

    Some Quotes from the Evil Koran:

    "If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things." [8:61]

    "Hold to forgiveness, command what is right; but turn away from the ignorant." [7:199]

    "Whoever kills another one without justifiable cause, surely he is killing all of humanity. And whoever saves the life of another one, surely he saves the lives of all of humanity." [Sura Al Ma'aidah: Ayah 32]

    "O unbelievers, I serve not what you serve and you are not serving what I serve, nor am I serving what you have served, neither are you serving what I serve. To you your religion, and to me my religion!"[3:28]

    "Verily, for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves, and all men and women who give in charity, and all men and women who keep fast, and all men and women who remember God constantly: For all of them has God prepared forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward" [33:35].

    The Great Bible Quotes:

    Deuteronomy 7:1-2 - "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."

    Exodus 35:2 - "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

    Psalms 139:7 - "How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock"

    I Sam 15:2-3 - "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

    Luke 19:27 - "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdo24bV_RHE&feature=fvw"]YouTube - Islam in America: Islamic Stars & Stripes - 26 Oct 08 - Pt 4[/ame]
    Last edited by Tubub; 07-28-09 at 04:13 AM.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    You clearly have an anti-Islamic agenda, and your purpose for joining DP was probably to try and spread your hate.
    Wow…I regard your spreading hate comment as a personal attack. Indeed, everything I say about Islam is always true and therefore is totally legitimate criticism. Even though Muslims have been mounting worldwide campaigns to make all criticism of religion illegal, which would leave us absolutely defenseless.

    It is also the reason why I’m also very much against the three hate crimes bills the useful idiot dupe Dhimmicrats are currently trying to pass in Congress, since inevitably the Muslims, which are very adept at exploiting our freedoms and laws against us, would inevitably use those hate crime laws if they are enacted to shut down all legitimate criticism of Islam cold.

    Irrespective of your personal attack upon me because obviously you can’t refute the message, if you can prove me wrong on anything I say regarding Islam I will apologize to you and indeed the entire forum, and also promise never to discuss Islam again. Otherwise, you will just have to learn that I have a very thick skin and personal attacks don’t bother me and in reality reflect on you and your ignorance.

    There are several sects and interpretations of every religion. Islam is no exception. Religion is a vague thing, and no religion is universal...all are divided, some more than others and some formally while others much more informally. Though extreme interpretations of the religion would like you to think that there was once one, undivided and utopian Islam... that is false. There has been fault lines ever since the religion's creation.
    I never said nor have I ever insinuated that Islam is monolithic and I recognize that there are numerous sects and divisions within Islam. However, the ulema of all 4 major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, which encompasses all the various sects of Islam, unanimously agree on the universal mission of Islam, which is to make the world sovereign for Allah via the imposition of Sharia. They also unanimously agree on the universal obligation for jihad.

    Some Quotes from the Evil Koran The Great Bible Quotes
    You know when I see someone attempting to morally equate the Koran with the Old Testament I laugh because I know automatically right off the bat that I’m dealing with someone that is completely ignorant of the text and tenants of Islam and how those text and tenants are interpreted. Thus, no wonder you are resorting to personally attacking me, you don’t have the first clue about what you are talking about.

    Not to mention that the peaceful Meccan verses that you are citing have all been abrogated (replaced), per the principle of abrogation – al-naskh wa al-mansukh – the abrogating and the abrogated, by the later Medinan verses.

    You see when Muhammad lived in Medina he was a peaceful man but a very unsuccessful holy prophet. However, after the Hirja, Muhammad’s migration to Medina because he was run out of Mecca for being a nuisance when his influential uncle died, Muhammad became a vicious bloodthirsty terrorist and started raiding Meccan caravans, before he turned on the kafirs (non-Muslims) and especially the Jews, and even the Jews that had gave him permission to settle down in Medina.

    As a matter of fact, it was not until after the Hirja, Muhammad’s migration to Medina, that the real Islam developed, and in Islam today the later verses issued by Muhammed always abrogate (supercede) the earlier verses of the Koran and especially the early Meccan verses. Indeed, the Koran itself lays out the principle of obligation:

    2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

    Additionally, this distinction between Muhammad’s life in Mecca and his life in Medina when Muhammad was a very ruthless terrorist is so profound that the Hirja (migration), which occurred in 622 CE, marks the start of the Islamic calendar and the beginning of Islam.

    Furthermore, those same exact peaceful Meccan verses that you are citing are the same exact verses that Muslims practicing taqiyya (deception) always inevitably cite to exploit the ignorance of useful idiot dupe kafirs (non-Muslims).

    In any event, Muslims committing acts of Islamic terrorism today around the world always justify their attacks by quoting specific verses of the Koran, the Hadith (sayings and traditions of the prophet), and the Sira (the biography of Muhammad).

    How many Christians in the world today do you see committing acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity that are also citing Old Testament verses to justify their vile acts? The answer is zero.

    You want to know why? It’s because the Old Testament verses applied to a specific time and place and against a specific enemy. While the Koranic verses and ahadith are universal and are valid for all time.

    Thus, when you attempt to draw a silly moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity, I have to laugh because it unequivocally indicates that you are a novice when it comes to Islam to say the very least.

    Nevertheless, to give you a good example of how the Koran is interpreted, take the infamous verse of the sword:

    9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    That single verse alone, which was one of the last verses Muhammad issued, abrogates (supersedes) more than 120 peaceful Meccan verses, including all the same ones that you ignorantly posted because apparently some taqiyya practicing Muslims somehow exploited your naivety and ignorance and deceived you.

    As for as your very misleading YouTube video goes, not only is it hilarious, it’s taqiyya and very misleading too. It was probably paid for with Wahhabi Lobby money.

    The reality is Muslims don’t immigrate to assimilate and integrate, instead they migrate to one day replace our constitution with the Koran and to impose Sharia upon kafirs.

    Indeed, look all around the world everywhere Muslims have immigrated, can you point to a single country where Muslims have assimilated and integrated and become productive and contributing members of the society instead of an unmitigated disaster?

    Of course, it goes without saying that the smaller the population of Muslims and the more recent the immigration, the more peaceful the Muslims. Nevertheless, as that immigration continues in due time and the more the percentage of Muslims relative to the non-Muslim population increases, the more and more emboldened the Muslims become.

    In any event, to see what will inevitably happen if the Muslims ever manage to gain the upper hand, just take a look inside the Islamic world today at how the non-Muslim dhimmis are very harshly treated, oppressed, and often killed for no reason at all, other than they weren’t Muslims. Study the Coptic Christians of Egypt and what is happening to the Chaldean Christians in Iraq today.

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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan - Political News - FOXNews.com

    I'm sorry, we're not there for victory, just to.. keep Al-quada from attacking us again...

    Our President just admitted he doesn't want Victory, he's ashamed of defeating our enemies... What a freaking moron.
    This proves Obama is not American, he's half Kenyan and half French.
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    Re: Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

    I think its corrupting the meaning of the original statement to say that Obama is not pursuing victory in Afghanistan. He's trying to make a point about how the traditional definition of "victory" is something that doesn't define the range of missions and goals that something like the situation in Afghanistan calls for. Like he said, he does not want to bring up images of the surrender on the USS Missouri because that's not going to happen.
    I completely agree with him. The mission, as a whole, in Afghanistan is much more about politics, economics, culture, than it is about military conflict. While eliminating the need for military operations in Afghanistan is certainly a victory and a step in the right direction, that goal cannot be accomplished by military means alone.
    Even in more "traditional" wars and missions, like WW2 and afterwards, things like politics and economics played a huge and vital role. However unlike WW2 or most wars in the past, the "order of business" so to speak isn't as clear. In WW2 the order was clear, first the mission was almost exclusively militarily focused, and then switched to being much more about politics and economics abruptly and very clearly. In other words WW2 had clear breaks between when the mission was mostly military, economic/political one. So while the US was officially at war with the Axis, the mission was nearly 100% military and once the war was officially over it became nearly 100% economic/political(Rebuilding Europe/Japan, dealing with the USSR, etc).
    In Afghanistan there are no clear time periods when the mission was primarily either military or economic/political. And the solution to that conflict requires that all three be dealt with at the same time and in conjugation. And unlike WW2 there will be no V-E or V-J day.

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