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Thread: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You didn't answer my question, since Im apparently not up to speed on this "a citizen must complain" stuff.
    We were talking about peace disturbance Caine.
    If an adult male goes outside in his own from yard and waves his exposed penis around for all the world to see, and an officer sees it but does not receive this "citizen complaint" about it, can the officer not act upon this crime of indecent exposure?
    Different crime, different elements. What does the statute say? Because that is what is what you to go off of. Not our opinion, I'm going off of what the statutes say and the interpretations the courts have rendered.

    I have never said officers cannot be witnesses to crimes and you know that. So just stop asserting that is my position. In certain cases a cop cannot be a victim. Some statutes are very clear on who constitutes a victim, as in the case of noise complaints or peace disturbances. "Public indecency" is a different issue because the crime is occurring "in public," in other words in a common area. Nothing in the statute identifies the "public" as the victim. In the case of Gates, the statute lists the "public" as the victim, not a necessarily a location. For that you have to have a member of the public actually be alarmed in order for the charge to be valid. Again this is a problem as this cop did not articulate which member of the public was actually alarmed, only that some unidentified citizens "appeared alarmed." That doesn't cut it, that's not evidence.

    A cop can pull up to an burglary in progress in which he sees a suspect going into a residence. If the owner comes out and says "I refuse to press charges" the state has no case against this man as there is no victim in the crime. In this case, no victim-no crime. No crime-no PC for arrest.

    An exception would be domestic violence or a fighting in public ordinance.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    This explanation makes absolutely no sense at all. And I'll explain why I find it less credible than the Officer's report.

    This is not very solid at all. The picture it paints is a man asking for a name and badge number, and an officer just standing, starring off into space apparently. This portion doesn't fit in with the time frame, and it appears as if too much information was left out. I wonder why that is?

    Again, wayy too much information left out for this thing to run smoothly. Gates would have us believe this story? He walks outside, and yet again a bunch of Officers just starring off into space as he asks a question and then as they wait for him to step outside arrest him. For what exactly?


    This story makes about as much sense as one my 3 year old son told me yesterday.

    There is way too much information left out of this account of the incident to be credible. The chain of events in this account of the story do not even roll smoothly from one act to the next. The beginning makes sense, but it all starts going downhill from where the officer showed up on scene. This leads me to believe that there are facts left out and facts made up.
    I don't buy his account of events either, but I can't prove it to be a lie. He's basically saying the officer was ignoring his requests and refusing to provide the information he requested. He's painting himself the poor victim who did nothing wrong.

    I simply wanted to point out that there are two sides to every story. I think both these guys are full of **** about how it actually went down. I think two idiots ran into each other that day and the result is a news story. That's what I think.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You can't prove that in court and you know it. There is no statutory authority to confine Gates to his house or curtail his freedom of speech.
    What is the statutory authority to curtail my freedom of expression if I feel like playing helicopter with my penis in my front yard?




    Okay, so he did invite Gates outside. There was no legitimate purpose in the officer doing that. He could have just left. But he didn't, he invited him to follow him outside. If he knows Gates is berating him then why would he want to invited him outside to continue the incident? So again I ask you, why did he invite him outside...because your answer does not suffice.
    The officer did leave, to go outside to finish the discussion, as his presence inside the house was no longer justified.
    Im certain if Gates is anything like the racists ive dealt with, he would ask a question and then before you can get a response out commence to talking over the officer again when they got outside. Of course, its not listed anywhere in the report so it didn't happen that way, even though the yelling cursing and swearing was not described in detail, and was very general.




    According to the report there were several officers outside the home, the caller, and now about 7 citizens.
    Outside the home could be 2 houses down showing Timmy how to ride a bike. Its still outside the home.



    Prove it. Nowhere in the report did the officer say any of those present had their peace disturbed or is there any testimony that they gathered because of what Gates was doing. That's the kind of **** you have to PROVE if you are going to charge somebody with this offense. It's called evidence.
    If someone is doing something else and they are bothered by the commotion to stop doing what they are doing and look over at the creator of said disturbance than I would believe that they have had their peace disturbed.

    Until you argue that point with the penis in the front yard thing I'll keep to my opinion on this one as well.


    Absolutely I've heard of a "noise complaint." Again, in many states a peace officer cannot arrest or cite someone for noise complaints unless a citizen files a complaint with the officer first as an officers peace cannot be disturbed while he or she is on duty. I'm sure there are some exceptions in municipalities. Here is a good example of what I'm talking about.


    Or this...


    This precept goes all the way back to the 20's. It's like this in most states.
    Strangely enough, I can go down the street and cite someone for a noise ordinance violation if I hear the violation and believe it to be in line with the elements of violating the noise ordinance.



    Red herring Caine and not applicable. You can't run out into your inner city yard and shoot a machine gun either.
    But being a beligerant asshole is allowed, because you say so.



    And you need a complainant for that to stick. So?
    You must also need a complaint for it to stick if you see a guy swinging his dick around in his front yard first too, since 'society/public' is your victim right?



    So people don't generally come out and look to see what a bunch of cop cars are doing across the street? Really? Whatever.
    Depends on the location. This doesn't happen everywhere.

    What does that have to do with this discussion? Did Gates do either of those? Both of which are crimes and you know it.
    Not if nobody is filing a complaint apparently.


    Keep on pretending you can read his mind and know what his purpose was. Again, you know that would never stand up in court.
    Yes. Lets suspend charging 1st degree murder too until we can read minds.


    Actually you can prove intent if you sufficiently document the facts of the case. Elements of conduct must documented in order to prove your case, that's all. That wasn't done in this case and that is the problem.
    I disagree.



    You can't do that in this case. It's not like he fired a gun into a crowd at the mall. You have to prove his intent was to alarm the public.
    And I've already shown where that was articulated. You still have shown me no other purpose someone would have to intentionally yell when warned he was being unnecessarily loud, while repeating the same garbage over and over and not have the intent to draw a crowd. I'd contend that anyone yelling with their listener 6 feet away is doing so to draw attention.


    Sure he can, but the officer is not part of the public when he is on duty, and thus cannot be the victim of a crime against the public. Can you provide evidence that an officer is "part of the public" while he is on duty?
    Yes. He is a human being and a member of society.


    I didn't say that, why are you injecting red herrings? You're bringing an entirely different crime into the argument for the purpose of trying to win this argument. It won't work. I was talking about peace disturbance, in fact I was pretty clear about what I was describing. We were talking about peace disturbance and disorderly conduct in which the "public" is disturbed or alarmed.
    And Ive demonstrated where the officer articulated that the public was alarmed.


    You're talking about indecent exposure and urinating in public. The elements of the crime are completely different. You don't need to take my comments out of the context of the argument I'm making in order to refute them.
    The victim is the same "society/public" and you are claiming that for all society/public victim crimes, you need a specific complainant in order to file the charge.


    You're correct. And given what we know my opinion appears to be very much in line with reason. Care to offer a counter opinion on why this case was dropped?
    Political reasons obviously.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    What is the statutory authority to curtail my freedom of expression if I feel like playing helicopter with my penis in my front yard?
    Red herring. You didn't answer the question. Why?

    The officer did leave, to go outside to finish the discussion, as his presence inside the house was no longer justified.
    Im certain if Gates is anything like the racists ive dealt with, he would ask a question and then before you can get a response out commence to talking over the officer again when they got outside. Of course, its not listed anywhere in the report so it didn't happen that way, even though the yelling cursing and swearing was not described in detail, and was very general.
    How did that answer my question? Why do you think he invited Gates outside? Was it to lay the groundwork for a disorderly conduct arrest? Because there is absolutely no legitimate reason, if his work was done, to invite him outside to continue the incident. Was the officer was deliberately inviting this man to continue the incident? The officers judgment is questionable.

    Outside the home could be 2 houses down showing Timmy how to ride a bike. Its still outside the home.
    Yeah, but then again we really don't any ****ing clue where they were because this guy did a ****ty CYA report to go along with his ****ty case.
    If someone is doing something else and they are bothered by the commotion to stop doing what they are doing and look over at the creator of said disturbance than I would believe that they have had their peace disturbed.
    No, you would have to speculate they had their peace disturbed. Because unless they complain to you that it happened, it didn't as far as the law in concerned.

    Until you argue that point with the penis in the front yard thing I'll keep to my opinion on this one as well.
    I've already addressed your irrelevant red herring, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

    Strangely enough, I can go down the street and cite someone for a noise ordinance violation if I hear the violation and believe it to be in line with the elements of violating the noise ordinance.
    Strangely enough many cops can't do that.

    But being a beligerant asshole is allowed, because you say so.
    Show me a law against it.

    You must also need a complaint for it to stick if you see a guy swinging his dick around in his front yard first too, since 'society/public' is your victim right?
    Did I say that? I was very clear in explaining the difference between a violation against "the public" and a violation that takes place "in public." You can stop straw manning me any time you like.


    Depends on the location. This doesn't happen everywhere.
    Okay, whatever.

    Not if nobody is filing a complaint apparently.
    Of course I didn't say that.

    Yes. Lets suspend charging 1st degree murder too until we can read minds.
    Culpable mental state is the difference between 1st degree murder and Manslaughter.

    I disagree.
    Okay.

    And I've already shown where that was articulated. You still have shown me no other purpose someone would have to intentionally yell when warned he was being unnecessarily loud, while repeating the same garbage over and over and not have the intent to draw a crowd. I'd contend that anyone yelling with their listener 6 feet away is doing so to draw attention.
    No Caine, you've given your opinion, which is not supported by the facts that were documented in this case. You're speculation about the case is no substitution for what is written in the police report.
    Yes. He is a human being and a member of society.
    That doesn't explain the situation statutorily. Again this is simply your perception, and philosophically its correct. However legally it's certainly not the case in many states.

    And Ive demonstrated where the officer articulated that the public was alarmed.
    No you didn't, because he didn't. He wrote that they "appeared alarmed." Appearing alarmed and actually being alarmed are two different things. You need a victim to actually state they are alarmed for that to be true.

    The victim is the same "society/public" and you are claiming that for all society/public victim crimes, you need a specific complainant in order to file the charge.
    No, and I've clearly stated there is a difference in crimes in which the elements involve "the public" as a victim and "public" as a location. There are absolute differences and if you think otherwise you are sorely mistaken.

    Political reasons obviously.
    I figured as much. Never mind the case is **** and should have never been made.

    I've stated my points, they aren't going to change.

    Peace.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    I used to run a large homeless shelter. Every once in a while, we'd get these "Everything bad that happens to me is because I'm BLACK!!!" dudes. If you tried to enforce the rules....you were picking on them because they were black. If they worked for you and were caught using their position to deal meth, they were only being fired because they were....BLACK! So your problem is you're black...waaah! Some of us have real problems. This professor is just another "Everything that's bad that happens to me is because I'm black!!!" dudes, no better, just the same....pathetic.
    When governments fear people, there is liberty, when people fear governments, there's Tyranny

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by frazier991 View Post
    I used to run a large homeless shelter. Every once in a while, we'd get these "Everything bad that happens to me is because I'm BLACK!!!" dudes. If you tried to enforce the rules....you were picking on them because they were black. If they worked for you and were caught using their position to deal meth, they were only being fired because they were....BLACK! So your problem is you're black...waaah! Some of us have real problems. This professor is just another "Everything that's bad that happens to me is because I'm black!!!" dudes, no better, just the same....pathetic.
    And which homeless shelter was that? It's awfully amazing that we get a guy like yourself that ran a homeless shelter coming to DP. Which one was it?

    The next thing we'll be hearing is that there was a guy that was 4th in line for the Microsoft corporation.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 07-23-09 at 11:37 PM.

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And which homeless shelter was that? It's awfully amazing that we get a guy like yourself that ran a homeless shelter coming to DP. Which one was it?
    It was Community House in Boise Id. which had a capacity of nearly 300. It was the only shelter of it's type in the Northwest, which had a family floor and transitional housing. I was the staff supervisor, and in the end, before our corrupt mayor and city council shut it down illegally, was the shelter supervisor. Feel free to check the facts on that including two tv interviews if you think I'm bull****ting.
    When governments fear people, there is liberty, when people fear governments, there's Tyranny

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And which homeless shelter was that? It's awfully amazing that we get a guy like yourself that ran a homeless shelter coming to DP. Which one was it?

    The next thing we'll be hearing is that there was a guy that was 4th in line for the Microsoft corporation.
    Further more, why is it awefully amazing?
    When governments fear people, there is liberty, when people fear governments, there's Tyranny

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    What's the matter nextra? Cat got your tongue? You implied I'm bull****ting about my background and I'm not suprised-alway impune the character of those who disagree with you-that's your typical M.O. I'll gladly take you on on this. Yes, I'm a conservative who not only has been homeless, but advocated for the homeless professionally, and can prove it. So you accused me of lying, the ball's in your court, idiot.
    When governments fear people, there is liberty, when people fear governments, there's Tyranny

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Gates told CNN Wednesday that although charges had been dropped, he will keep the issue alive.

    "This is not about me; this is about the vulnerability of black men in America," Gates told CNN's Soledad O'Brien.

    Gates said the Cambridge mayor had called him to apologize about the incident. Simmons, Cambridge's first black female mayor, confirmed to CNN that she apologized to Gates.

    Cambridge top cop stands by department after Harvard arrest - CNN.com
    Of course Gates is keeping this alive. He LOVES the attention this is getting him, as well as the sympathy factor. Oh, and of course a fellow black person is apologizing to him.

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