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Thread: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I absolutely did and in that case the cops lost. In the very few cases that were referenced the conduct of the defendants was very much different that what Gates did. Gates wasn't intoxicated, he was resisting apprehension in any way, he was shoving his hands in his pockets when told not to, he wasn't fighting in public. In those cases the cops had more elements of the crime with which to make their case.

    In the Gates case the level of behavior did not rise to the same degree as that of the defendants in the cases cited. I don't have to reference citizen complainants in those cases because they are not relevant to the argument I am making about the circumstances of THIS case. I cited that case for two reasons:
    1. It had the statutory definintion of the crime in question
    2. It provided an example of what disorderly conduct was not.



    In those cases the elements of the crime were different than in the Gates case. There were additional factors such as public intoxication, resisting apprehension, fighting, etc. It wasn't just a subject yelling at the cops. Which is all that Gates did.
    Did Gates following the officers serve a 'legitimate purpose'?

    The officer finished his work inside the residence and left the residence, informing Mr. Gates if he wished to continue 'talking' he could go outside, since the officer no longer had a legitimate reason for being in the residence. I say the officer no longer had a legitimate reason for being in the residence because he
    A. Confirmed that Gates was the residence owner.
    B. Was obviously not welcomed to be in the residence by Gates.

    Gates came outside, was acting disruptive and loudly cursing and swearing, which caused others to stop what they were doing and look on, as if alerted to the situation and at the very least it caused enough of a nuisance to interrupt the normal activities of those who were out in public in the area. He was informed of this and asked to quiet down. His refusal to do so shows and intent to make a scene, for the purpose of gaining public attention. He was told to calm down and continued to refuse and thus he was arrested after given ample opportunity to comply and act civil. I would agree with Harshaw in that nowhere is being upset a defense to this law.

    And as I read the case law you provided and the Mass statute reguarding this offense and nowhere does it state a requirement for a specific complaint filed by a citizen of the disorderly conduct.

    EDIT to add: I would not agree that the situation that occurred before the elements of this crime were met would provide for Gates to be in any mental state that would excuse him from his actions, or create any sort of defense.

    However, that would be a situation for a court to review, and thus the probable cause for the arrest would still remain the same.

    Probable cause for an arrest doesn't always mean you will receive a conviction. That is up for the courts to decide.
    Last edited by Caine; 07-23-09 at 07:49 PM.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post

    Horse****. Don't talk about things you obviously know nothing about.
    Umm.. Unless a citizen goes to a magistrate and obtains an arrest warrant for disorderly conduct, yes the officer does indeed have to witness the violation him/her self.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Umm.. Unless a citizen goes to a magistrate and obtains an arrest warrant for disorderly conduct, yes the officer does indeed have to witness the violation him/her self.
    May be different circumstances depending on municipality. In my town, we used to arrest folks all the time at the local nightclubs for disorderly conduct, and all they had to do was touch a bouncer. The bouncer then had to provide a written statement, but no police ever had to witness the incident.
    Sen. Clare McCaskill (D-MO) said on Wednesday that Joe Biden "has a tendency to talk forever and sometimes say things that are kind of stupid." She seemed to regret her own words, saying, "I was probably having a Joe Biden moment myself."

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Allusionation View Post
    May be different circumstances depending on municipality. In my town, we used to arrest folks all the time at the local nightclubs for disorderly conduct, and all they had to do was touch a bouncer. The bouncer then had to provide a written statement, but no police ever had to witness the incident.
    Procedures like this change from state to state.

    But to call straight out horse**** like Lerxst did is incorrect.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Please provide sources, definitions, interpretations, etc. I'll have this argument with you.
    Google "Duty to Act Reasonably."


    No it's not. The police did not observe a criminal act, and that is the problem. Police observed a man who was upset and yelling at them. That's it. There was no crime being committed for them to observe, thus no PC.
    That's your opinion; the police had a differing view. The burden of probable cause is "more likely than not," not "beyond a reasonable doubt." If the cop thinks he's observing a crime, then that's probable cause as long as he can articulate it.
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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Did Gates following the officers serve a 'legitimate purpose'?
    The officer asked him outside. He followed him outside. He was on his own property. He can walk where he chooses. If you are going to take this approach you need to define what constitutes "legitimate purpose" and what does not. The officer are on his property, they are leaving, he is following. Show me how it's "illegitimate."

    The officer finished his work inside the residence and left the residence, informing Mr. Gates if he wished to continue 'talking' he could go outside,
    He invited him to follow. Okay.
    since the officer no longer had a legitimate reason for being in the residence. I say the officer no longer had a legitimate reason for being in the residence because he
    A. Confirmed that Gates was the residence owner.
    B. Was obviously not welcomed to be in the residence by Gates.
    Why then did he invite Gates to follow him?

    Gates came outside, was acting disruptive and loudly cursing and swearing, which caused others to stop what they were doing and look on, as if alerted to the situation and at the very least it caused enough of a nuisance to interrupt the normal activities of those who were out in public in the area.
    Wrong, they were already assembled outside his residence. The report even says this. Since they had gathered during the period of the incident that occurred in Gates residence his activity didn't cause them to do anything they weren't already voluntarily engaged in of their own accord. They were gawking before Gates followed the cop outside because all the police cars were in the neighborhood. This is not an uncommon phenomenon.

    He was informed of this and asked to quiet down.
    So? Show me the law that says you can't yell on your own property.

    His refusal to do so shows and intent to make a scene,
    No it doesn't. It shows his intent to yell at the officer.

    for the purpose of gaining public attention.
    Pure speculation and would never hold up in court. You're not a mind reader.

    He was told to calm down and continued to refuse and thus he was arrested after given ample opportunity to comply and act civil.
    And where is the crime here? Not being calm is not a crime. His not being a crime has to rise to the level of violating state statute, which has already been posted here. Based upon the report his behavior did not violate statute.

    I would agree with Harshaw in that nowhere is being upset a defense to this law.
    Harshaw is wrong in his position. He didn't violate the law. In your own words you are completely reliant upon guessing at Gates intent to make your case. A defense attorney would shut this down in short order and you'd be laughed off the stand.
    And as I read the case law you provided and the Mass statute reguarding this offense and nowhere does it state a requirement for a specific complaint filed by a citizen of the disorderly conduct.
    When the crime is against the public, and not the state, the public must provide a complainant or victim in order to testify that their peace was disturbed, annoyed, or that they were alarmed. Otherwise how can an officer say "the public was alarmed" when nobody from the public made that complaint.

    This thing was dumped because they knew it would never stand up...ever.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Google "Duty to Act Reasonably."




    That's your opinion; the police had a differing view. The burden of probable cause is "more likely than not," not "beyond a reasonable doubt." If the cop thinks he's observing a crime, then that's probable cause as long as he can articulate it.
    Based upon the report filed, I conceed that he has articulated such, in my opinion.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Google "Duty to Act Reasonably."
    No, it's your case. You make it.

    That's your opinion; the police had a differing view.
    And they were wrong.

    The burden of probable cause is "more likely than not," not "beyond a reasonable doubt."
    I'm aware of that.

    If the cop thinks he's observing a crime, then that's probable cause as long as he can articulate it.
    You're not applying that reason properly here. This officer has a responsibility to know the elements of the crime he is arresting an offender for. The elements were not there, the officer doesn't get to "think he sees PC" and then follow through with the arrest...he has to HAVE PC. It's called the investigatory process. And he didn't articulate it successfully.

    This was a bad arrest.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Umm.. Unless a citizen goes to a magistrate and obtains an arrest warrant for disorderly conduct, yes the officer does indeed have to witness the violation him/her self.
    Wrong Caine, a citizen can file a witness statement with the officer while making the report. The officer doesn't have to witness anything, the testimony of the victim/witness/complainant is more than enough and serves as probable cause.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Top scholar Gates arrested in Mass., claims racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Allusionation View Post
    May be different circumstances depending on municipality. In my town, we used to arrest folks all the time at the local nightclubs for disorderly conduct, and all they had to do was touch a bouncer. The bouncer then had to provide a written statement, but no police ever had to witness the incident.
    And touching a bouncer is assault. That is more than a simple peace disturbance.

    Thus far nobody has successfully articulated that this man committed an offense that actually meets the statutory definition of "disorderly conduct" under Massachusetts law.
    *insert profound statement here*

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