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House bill would make health care a right

The Constitution and its amendments are drafted in highly general terms. Edmund Randolph, who wrote the first draft, explained that he had to write it this way so that it would be able to adapt to changing times and circumstances. As to whether we ought to interpret the U.S. Constitution narrowly or broadly; there was no consensus even among the Founding Fathers. It was a topic of hot debate in their time, even among those who together drafted the document, even as they were drafting it. Because of that, there is no definite or final precedent to which either liberals or conservatives can refer to justify their views of the document; the tension which exists between the two ideologies (or something like it) today went into the making of the U.S. Constitution. Because of that fact, the perspective -- "living Constitution" or "strict constitutionalism" -- which prevails at any given point in time will be the one which is most . . . I'll say 'practical'. The perspective which is most practical prevails. But that might be too generous. It might be better to say the perspective which is most powerful prevails.

That things are not explicitly mentioned does not ultimately matter -- or, at least, it does not "have to" matter, depending on which style of interpretation is winning the American political game at the time; airlines are not explicitly mentioned, but they get grouped under a bunch of constitutional clauses anyway. The same thing can occur with health service. I already offered one possible constitutional rationale for how the health insurance program might be legitimized. But I assure you, it will, barring some unlikely upset from the U.S. Supreme Court down the road, be legitimized.

I disagree with that premise. You will find that the founders did not intend the Constitution to be open to just any interpretation of the times and circumstances.

"On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:449
 
Well, physically yes, but not logically.

Perfectly logically, if I have to be enslaved to provide someone else a "right", then they can eat **** about their non-existent "right".

As you were instructed, the police are an essential function of government.

Medical care is not, never has been and never should be.

Whaddya wanna do, keep the useless Obama supporters around fo-ever?


Since their lives are nasty and brutish, let's help keep them short, too.

Seriously, I don't give a rat's behind about people too poor or too ignorant to get their own health care. It's not my problem, it's certainly not my responsibility, and it is slavery.
 
I quoted from a participant who made a claim that the founding fathers did not believe in positive rights. I am asking him to provide a link proving evidence of that claim. Why don't you just butt out?

Have you managed to answer the other posters question, and prove that pink unicorns don't exist?
 
I have to prove that the Founding Fathers didn't want the government to do something? That's not how they wrote. They specifically laid out those things that the government should do. If it's not there, then it can't be done.

The fact is the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution says...."yo, dudes, if we didn't write it explicitly in the Constitution for the Federal government to do, the Federal government isn't allowed to do it and it's up to the individual states to make the decisions for themselves."

Ergo..

..the Founders DID NOT believe in "positive" rights.
 
At the time the founding fathers wrote the Constitution, there were 13 new states with no federal beaurocracy, no money for the military, no communication between geographic areas, not even any payment for the framers themselves. It is a bit of a reach to expect them to anticipate a day when the United States is so wealthy and connected that it is capable of insuring health care, education, and other services for its populace. However, I seriously doubt they would object to the concept, as it fits with their premise as stated in the preamble to the Constitution:

Your seriousness is irrelevant, since your doubts are proven wrong by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.
 

I don't believe this is true, I think they recognized the infant nation had no capability to provide positive rights to a frontier. Nevertheless, postal service was initiated, and a militia and navy were formed. These are both positive rights. I think the founding fathers would agree that a nation is obligated to provide whatever positive rights it is capable of, and that the nation they founded, in the 21st century, should have made great strides in "promoting the general welfare".

Constitutional authority was delegated to create certain institutions, that does not translate into a positive right.
 
Why can't this be achieved at the state levels? Is this not something that is the province of the states, since the federal government is not granted this authority in the Constitution?
 
The Constitution and its amendments are drafted in highly general terms.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are almost exclusively excruciatingly explicit in intent and meaning.

The Congress has the power to fund the Army and Navy.

It has no authority to fund any of the socialist nonsense that's corrupted this country since the beginning of the Twentieth Century.

It's very explicit, all you have to do is stop pretending you don't speak english.
 
Everyone got enchanted with Leviathan in the 20th century, especially Hobbes' idea that words have no meaning.
 
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are almost exclusively excruciatingly explicit in intent and meaning.

The Congress has the power to fund the Army and Navy.

It has no authority to fund any of the socialist nonsense that's corrupted this country since the beginning of the Twentieth Century.

It's very explicit, all you have to do is stop pretending you don't speak english.
The poor are to be helped through individual charity.
 
Will,

As American posted........ Showing your fail..


"If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1802. ME 10:342

Oooh Jefferson, I love Jefferson:

"The first object of human association [is] the full improvement of
their condition." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Protest, 1825.

"The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to
secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general
mass of those associated under it." --Thomas Jefferson to M. van
der Kemp, 1812.

"It will be said that great societies cannot exist without
government." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"This I hope will be the age of experiments in government, and
that their basis will be founded in principles of honesty, not of
mere force." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1796.

"We exist, and are quoted, as standing proofs that a government,
so modeled as to rest continually on the will of the whole
society, is a practicable government." --Thomas Jefferson to
Richard Rush, 1820.


and this, one of my favorites

"The greatest good we can do our country is to heal its party
divisions and make them one people." --Thomas Jefferson to John
Dickinson, 1801.
 
The poor are to be helped through individual charity.

And if that doesn't help them, are you ok with children dying?

I'm ok right now, so each and every child that dies because government help is not there is on you. You ok with that? Can you and others live with yourselves knowing a child is dying because you took away welfare?
 
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Works for me.

Gives'em incentive to find jobs.


Ahh but the conservative mentality is those that are qualified get jobs. For those not qualified, then they fall out of the system. I'm glad you are ok with children dying to serve your political agenda.
 
Oooh Jefferson, I love Jefferson:

Then again, you could try quoting the proper context, too.

You quoted:
"The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to
secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general
mass of those associated under it." --Thomas Jefferson to M. van
der Kemp, 1812.

What was also said:
The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general mass of those associated under it. The events which this work proposes to embrace will establish the fact that unless the mass retains sufficient control over those intrusted with the powers of their government, these will be perverted to their own oppression, and to the perpetuation of wealth and power in the individuals and their families selected for the trust. Whether our Constitution has hit on the exact degree of control necessary, is yet under experiment; and it is a most encouraging reflection that distance and other difficulties securing us against the brigand governments of Europe, in the safe enjoyment of our farms and firesides, the experiment stands a better chance of being satisfactorily made here than on any occasion yet presented by history.

Can you explain why we should emulate the brigand governments of europe?
 
It's amazing that people try to make themselves experts on only letters written from people in the past.

By that regard if people were to have read every letter in the past from me to others, they would come to the conclusion I am a catholic. However, since I am an agnostic and haven't written many letters since then that would be false conclusion.

Amazing how people can consider themselves experts on what people have written without knowing the person.
 
Works for me.

If you people who care so much won't open your wallets, why would you expect those of us who are honest to open ours instead?

The problem is that not every person opens their wallets and people would starve otherwise.

Not that you would care obviously since you would be ok with children dying.

Oh and BTW before you put your foot in your mouth you have no idea what I donate, nor do you know what I volunteer for, so take a nice 64 oz. glass of STFU on that ok?
 
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Ahh but the conservative mentality is those that are qualified get jobs. For those not qualified, then they fall out of the system. I'm glad you are ok with children dying to serve your political agenda.

I'm perfectly okay with that.

Ain't my kids.

I used to push a nuclear submarine around that may or may not have carried nuclear missiles, something I'm not at liberty to say. I was perfectly aware that the kids under those missiles were going to die, so I could protect my "political agenda" and the nation that went with it.

I'm certainly not going to get squamish about protecting America just because the vermin trying to bring it down live here, too.

What have you ever done for America?
 
Works for me.

If you people who care so much won't open your wallets, why would you expect those of us who are honest to open ours instead?

Because they're only charitable with other people's money.
 
It's amazing that people try to make themselves experts on only letters written from people in the past.

By that regard if people were to have read every letter in the past from me to others, they would come to the conclusion I am a catholic. However, since I am an agnostic and haven't written many letters since then that would be false conclusion.

Amazing how people can consider themselves experts on what people have written without knowing the person.

So are you trying to say that we should disregard all letters or written works that people write? Wow, then our intellectual development is meaningless because we can't trust people's words.
 
I'm perfectly okay with that.

Ain't my kids.

So you are ok with kids starving that is good to now.

What have you ever done for America?

I love when people ask me this question, It is the main reason why I don't submit my name for an award recognition at this site, because I love how many people automatically assume because I am a liberal and haven't done anything for my country.

I am retired army, served a total of 20 years 7 months.

Next Question?
 
So are you trying to say that we should disregard all letters or written works that people write? Wow, then our intellectual development is meaningless because we can't trust people's words.

I'm saying that when people write something AT SOME TIME, doesn't reflect who they are when they die.

Again I submit myself, I have written letters and people would say I am a catholic, but if I were to die tomorrow, they would never know I ma an agnostic.

Are you saying that written letters say who a person is their entire life?

Sorry, but a letter reflects who they were at the time they wrote the letter only.

It doesn't reflect their beliefs at death for certain. Things change.
 
I'm perfectly okay with that.



I used to push a nuclear submarine around that may or may not have carried nuclear missiles, something I'm not at liberty to say.

Nuclear sub captain eh? Sure you were, just like Scorpion is a "test pilot instructor"
 
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