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Thread: House bill would make health care a right

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You ever hear of "government efficiency"?

    Me neither.

    Why are you people pretending government run healthcare will be more effective than what I have now?
    If the government is not changing the type of education the doctors are required to receive or how they receive it what is inefficient in regards to education and training under this plan?

    You said nurses and doctors will become like DMV workers. If the standards of education and experience aren't being lowered from the current requirements how is that true? DMV workers have the stigma of being illeducated, uncreative, and working only for a paycheck. I don't see that happening with doctors and nurses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I see this bill reducing the number of people choosing medicine as a career. One doesn't have to study for fifteen years to become a civil servant.
    What makes you think that? If anything I would see an increase in medicine as a career due to the fact that the revenue driven private market is no longer a requirement for employment. There will now be a enormous job market in the outrageous budget inflated government programs.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 07-15-09 at 05:46 PM.
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    The US constitution was adopted in 1787.
    Which was still before medicine was effective.

    I assume you are joking that forcing other people to provide for you is a right.
    You can't make the distinction between negative and positive rights on that basis. Police and military must provide security, lawyers must provide counsel for us, and those are explicit rights granted in the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    The Founding Fathers did not believe in positive rights.
    And appeal to authority is not an argument, especially when you're appealing to people who were necessarily limited by their time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Tase Me Bro View Post
    Providing a military is a Constitutional function of the Federal government. The other services you mention are services provided by the local governments. The Congress has no Constitutional authority to create a Federal health care system. This isn't hard to understand.
    Where do they get the authority to tell states they have to have a 21-year drinking age or else they'll withhold highway funds? Who cares what the Constitution says? They surely don't.

    And even if they did, you can justify almost anything not explicitly forbade by the Constitution via the necessary and proper clause, promoting the general welfare, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen, what do you expect from a radical leftist?

    Obama has been playing the Saul Alinsky tune from day one, and is merely continuing it. Throw as much as you can, as fast as you can and overwhelm the system. RUSH EVERYTHING, don't give anyone time to stop your plans.

    It's rather sickening to watch, I expect this developing and 3rd world countries, it appears the American people decided we needed a dose of utter idiocy as well.
    It's not exactly radical, considering that the rest of the industrialized world has NHI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    You are partially correct. 46% of American favor health reform.

    On the other hand, 49% oppose it according to the latest Rasmussen Poll.

    That makes you mostly wrong.
    That's pretty remote from the polls I've seen. Very sure more than 46% favor some type of reform, but that might be close to people who favor how Obama is doing it.... maybe... source? I'd like to see the exact wording.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    But there was an understanding of rights.

    Health care ain't a right.

    While they were pioneers in some of the most basic of rights, they applied them inconsistently. They still had slavery and didn't have women's suffrage. It would be anachronistic of me to villify them for that, but it would be equally stupid for me to idolize them. They were geniuses in their time, but we have learned so much since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    is college education a right?


    Is dental a right?


    Where is it in the constitution that the government has the right to take my money to pay for your (general you) poor health habits?
    Well basic education is certainly treated as a positive right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You ever hear of "government efficiency"?

    Me neither.
    Actually yes. The VHA between 1998 and 2005, prior to them getting overwhelmed by Bush's wars without an increase in funding.

    Why are you people pretending government run healthcare will be more effective than what I have now?
    This isn't government-run healthcare, it's government-funded healthcare. Considering how much America already pays ~3 times as much per capita, on average, than countries with NHI, with worse outcomes, I'd venture a guess they would have trouble doing worse than the private sector.

    I see this bill reducing the number of people choosing medicine as a career. One doesn't have to study for fifteen years to become a civil servant.
    Doctors in countries with NHI/NHS are paid less, but most good doctors don't go into it purely for the money. Germany is the only country I've heard of where there's a widespread problem of underpaid doctors in general. Primary care has that problem here more than most anywhere.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-15-09 at 06:11 PM.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    You can't make the distinction between negative and positive rights on that basis.
    Yes, I can.

    If I have to pay for someone else's medical care, and I don't know them or don't like them, I'd rather they died and I kept my money. Therefore, the government has to shove a gun in my face to collect that money.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Police and military
    Exist because the function of government is to protect the lives and property of it's citizens from violent foreigners and violent citizens intent on stealing from others.

    That is the basic cost of living in a civilized country.

    The government stealing to provide health care for people, that's not essential to the security of the republic.


    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    must provide security, lawyers must provide counsel for us, and those are explicit rights granted in the Constitution.
    Okie dokie, let's talk about "explicit" rights.

    Where, and be completely explicit here, does the Constitution say the government must provide health care for anyone. In your answer, explain why, if the Constitution was so explicit about this, that the government failed to explicitly provide health care for more than two hundred and twenty two years since the ratification of the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    And appeal to authority is not an argument, especially when you're appealing to people who were necessarily limited by their time.
    No, the fact that the Constitution does not allow federally funded health care is an argument, though.

    Pay close attention to what the Tenth Amendment says, and the Ninth.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Where do they get the authority to tell states they have to have a 21-year drinking age or else they'll withhold highway funds? Who cares what the Constitution says? They surely don't.
    So you're saying since we're getting raped already by people who ignore the Constitution, we should be totally ready and eager by now for them to haul out the herd of sex starved bull elephants that your demand for socialized medicine entails.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    And even if they did, you can justify almost anything not explicitly forbade by the Constitution via the necessary and proper clause, promoting the general welfare, etc.
    yeah, the old "general welfare" BS. Article 1, Section 8 defines explicitly what Congress is allowed to do to promote the General Welfare. The term "general welfare" is not the blank check the commies make it out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    It's not exactly radical, considering that the rest of the industrialized world has NHI.
    The rest of the industrialized world sucks weenie when it comes to health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Well basic education is certainly treated as a positive right.
    The Constitution does not allow the Federal government to spend money on public education. Thomas Jefferson himself pointed this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    This isn't government-run healthcare,
    A meaningless distinction since we all know that the man paying the piper calls the tune.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Why don't you produce the evidence that the founding fathers did not believe in positive rights? I think you just made that up.
    One, I am not the one that said that.

    Two, don't answer my question with another question.

    You said:

    I think the founding fathers would agree that a nation is obligated to provide whatever positive rights it is capable of, and that the nation they founded, in the 21st century, should have made great strides in "promoting the general welfare".
    I asked:

    Based on what evidence?
    I await your answer.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Which was still before medicine was effective.



    You can't make the distinction between negative and positive rights on that basis. Police and military must provide security, lawyers must provide counsel for us, and those are explicit rights granted in the Constitution.

    We have a "right" to police protection? "right" to having fires put out?



    This isn't government-run healthcare, it's government-funded healthcare. Considering how much America already pays ~3 times as much per capita, on average, than countries with NHI, with worse outcomes, I'd venture a guess they would have trouble doing worse than the private sector.

    semantics...




    Doctors in countries with NHI/NHS are paid less, but most good doctors don't go into it purely for the money. Germany is the only country I've heard of where there's a widespread problem of underpaid doctors in general. Primary care has that problem here more than most anywhere.

    Yah cause Americans are less profit driven than Germans.



    Your username, irony, right?
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Why don't you produce the evidence that the founding fathers did not believe in positive rights? I think you just made that up.



    why don't you prove unicorns don't exist.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    LOL, O'Reilly is talking to Fox and Friends right now and called private insurance a scam. You should've seen the looks on the Fox and Friends peoples' faces. They were trying not to wince, lol.

    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    You can't make the distinction between negative and positive rights on that basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes, I can.

    If I have to pay for someone else's medical care, and I don't know them or don't like them, I'd rather they died and I kept my money. Therefore, the government has to shove a gun in my face to collect that money.
    Well, physically yes, but not logically. You were saying if you have to provide something for somebody, then it canít be called a right. Well, negative and positive rights are not different in that regard, as police and lawyers are no freer than doctors and teachers. And we donít tell people they canít have access to police protection or lawyers for any reason. Itís a right.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    Police and military
    Exist because the function of government is to protect the lives and property of it's citizens from violent foreigners and violent citizens intent on stealing from others.

    That is the basic cost of living in a civilized country.

    The government stealing to provide health care for people, that's not essential to the security of the republic.
    At what point do taxes cease to be stealing? The skyrocketing costs of healthcare sure seem to threaten our economic security at least as much as our enemies stealing oil-rich land from our allies. Healthcare is a need that few can reliably provide for themselves anyway. What you advocate is not only Darwinian, but also inefficient. Private health insurance simply works against the goal of promoting health, especially for the poor but also for the rich who get overtreated to keep hospitals in the black.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    must provide security, lawyers must provide counsel for us, and those are explicit rights granted in the Constitution.
    Okie dokie, let's talk about "explicit" rights.

    Where, and be completely explicit here, does the Constitution say the government must provide health care for anyone. In your answer, explain why, if the Constitution was so explicit about this, that the government failed to explicitly provide health care for more than two hundred and twenty two years since the ratification of the Constitution.
    I donít really care what the Constitution says, nor should anybody else. We need a new government system. Itís easy for the Constitution to exist as a self-contradictory document, it was written that way. I just happen to agree with a lot of it, even if itís not sufficiently broad in its scope.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    Where do they get the authority to tell states they have to have a 21-year drinking age or else they'll withhold highway funds? Who cares what the Constitution says? They surely don't.
    So you're saying since we're getting raped already by people who ignore the Constitution, we should be totally ready and eager by now for them to haul out the herd of sex starved bull elephants that your demand for socialized medicine entails.
    Well, first youíd have to tell me why we should care. The problem I see is that Congress is composed primarily of idiotic lawyers elected by an idiotic populace by a flawed process. So the fact that they disrespect the Constitution seems pretty small to me.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    And even if they did, you can justify almost anything not explicitly forbade by the Constitution via the necessary and proper clause, promoting the general welfare, etc.
    yeah, the old "general welfare" BS. Article 1, Section 8 defines explicitly what Congress is allowed to do to promote the General Welfare. The term "general welfare" is not the blank check the commies make it out to be.
    Not so sure itís only liberals who use that clause for wide latitude.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    It's not exactly radical, considering that the rest of the industrialized world has NHI.
    The rest of the industrialized world sucks weenie when it comes to health care.
    If by suck weenie you mean pay less and get better results, I suppose. (:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    Well basic education is certainly treated as a positive right.
    The Constitution does not allow the Federal government to spend money on public education. Thomas Jefferson himself pointed this out.
    Again, why do we care what a hypocritical yet intelligent slaveowner from centuries ago thought? If you think he had a good argument, present it. Simply citing his opinion doesn't prove your point to somebody who doesn't lend credance to appeal to authority fallacies.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited
    This isn't government-run healthcare,
    A meaningless distinction since we all know that the man paying the piper calls the tune.
    Yeah the government would be so much worse than private companies who profit from denying people care, lol.

    But actually it is very different. Profit doesn't necessarily work against the provision of healthcare, particularly when there is a prospect of profiting from a new innovation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    We have a "right" to police protection? "right" to having fires put out?
    Ah so you don't want the government to do that either? I suppose we could adopt feudalism...

    Yah cause Americans are less profit driven than Germans.
    Precisely the problem, but it's a cultural one we have to work into policy. We have to assume greed will prevail when we talk about America. Sometimes profit-driven innovation works well with regulation. But private health insurance. It just can't work well. The goal of profit works against its societal purpose.

    Your username, irony, right?
    I first started using this name on a political forum that doesn't exist anymore. At the time I was a hardcore libertarian. Today, I am fiscally liberal and socially libertarian. Healthcare and education are more basic needs, indeed prereqs, to enjoying the negative rights.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-16-09 at 09:40 AM.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    LOL, O'Reilly is talking to Fox and Friends right now and called private insurance a scam. You should've seen the looks on the Fox and Friends peoples' faces. They were trying not to wince, lol.

    Oh, did you confuse O'Reilly with a conservative? Many liberals do this for some reason.


    Well, physically yes, but not logically. You were saying if you have to provide something for somebody, then it canít be called a right. Well, negative and positive rights are not different in that regard, as police and lawyers are no freer than doctors and teachers. And we donít tell people they canít have access to police protection or lawyers for any reason. Itís a right.

    You do know that the police are under no obligation to help you or protect you as an individual right?



    I donít really care what the Constitution says, nor should anybody else. We need a new government system. Itís easy for the Constitution to exist as a self-contradictory document, it was written that way. I just happen to agree with a lot of it, even if itís not sufficiently broad in its scope.

    And this is where you fail. We don't need a new government system, and that document provided the framework to make us the great nation we are today.






    Again, why do we care what a hypocritical yet intelligent slaveowner from centuries ago thought? If you think he had a good argument, present it. Simply citing his opinion doesn't prove your point to somebody who doesn't lend credance to appeal to authority fallacies.

    This is sad. Slave owning was common throughout the world at that time. The founders were smart enough to set up the ground work for its abolishment and talked about slavery not being the right thing here.






    Yeah the government would be so much worse than private companies who profit from denying people care, lol.
    Ever been to a VA hospital?


    Ah so you don't want the government to do that either? I suppose we could adopt feudalism...
    Not what I said. That said, I prefer to leave my security up to me, the police can come document the carnage that I cause to those who wish me harm.



    Precisely the problem, but it's a cultural one we have to work into policy. We have to assume greed will prevail when we talk about America. Sometimes profit-driven innovation works well with regulation. But private health insurance. It just can't work well. The goal of profit works against its societal purpose.

    Collectivism breeds complacency and no motivation. It breeds the worst more than the best from people. Not a good thing when you have your chest cavity cracked open.





    I first started using this name on a political forum that doesn't exist anymore. At the time I was a hardcore libertarian. Today, I am fiscally liberal and socially libertarian. Healthcare and education are more basic needs, indeed prereqs, to enjoying the negative rights.


    define "Social libertarian"?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Oh, did you confuse O'Reilly with a conservative? Many liberals do this for some reason.
    I wasn't making an argument, that would've been an appeal to authority. I just thought it was amusing. I'm watching Fox News because I like to watch them squirm.

    You do know that the police are under no obligation to help you or protect you as an individual right?
    Well I do know they should be, but can you cite something that shows the law agrees with you?

    And this is where you fail. We don't need a new government system, and that document provided the framework to make us the great nation we are today.
    lol. Read "Who Rules America" by Domhoff. We didn't succeed because of it, we succeded in spite of it. Geography (american mainland remarkably untouched by modern wars), resources, diversity... there are many, many reasons for America's success and they do not include single-district plurality voting.

    This is sad. Slave owning was common throughout the world at that time. The founders were smart enough to set up the ground work for its abolishment and talked about slavery not being the right thing here.
    My point is simply that appealing to authority is not an argument. If their arguments still apply today, then present them.

    Ever been to a VA hospital?
    They were the best we had, until very recently I guess. Read this:

    Veterans' health system blazing trails


    Collectivism breeds complacency and no motivation. It breeds the worst more than the best from people. Not a good thing when you have your chest cavity cracked open.
    lol, you mean on the part of the doctor? Show me that there are worse mortality statistics for open heart surgeries in, say, France.

    There are ways to put sticks and carrots into a public system.

    define "Social libertarian"?
    pro 2nd amendment, for pragmatic reasons not because it's in the constitution.
    pro drug legalization
    purist on free speech, against political correctness
    Against victimless crimes in general
    pro-choice, though I come from it from a different angle than most.
    against the death penalty
    against affirmative action
    etc.

    Closer to liberal than conservative, but not exactly liberal like democrats.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-16-09 at 10:13 AM.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    I



    Well I do know they should be, but can you cite something that shows the law agrees with you?

    You can start with these:

    Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1, 4 (D.C. 1981)

    California Government Code, ß 845.

    Souza v. City of Antioch, 62 California Reporter, 2d 909, 916 (Cal. App. 1997).

    Mass. Gen. Laws Ann. Ch. 258 ß 10(h).


    Ford v. Town of Grafion, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998).




    lol. Read "Who Rules America" by Domhoff. We didn't succeed because of it, we succeded in spite of it. Geography (american mainland remarkably untouched by modern wars), resources, diversity... there are many, many reasons for America's success and they do not include single-district plurality voting.


    No thanks. While geography did play a role, limited government and capitalism allowed us to grow as we did.






    My point is simply that appealing to authority is not an argument. If their arguments still apply today, then present them.

    "thier argument" is that of natural law.... This is still current.






    They were the best we had, until very recently I guess. Read this:

    Veterans' health system blazing trails




    As a Gulf war Vet, I choose to have additional private health insurance to avoid the VA like the plague....






    lol, you mean on the part of the doctor? Show me that there are worse mortality statistics for open heart surgeries in, say, France


    There are ways to put sticks and carrots into a public system..

    I tried googling the rates, and it was too much a pita, perhaps you can have better luck with this.




    pro 2nd amendment, for pragmatic reasons not because it's in the constitution.
    pro drug legalization
    purist on free speech, against political correctness
    Against victimless crimes in general
    pro-choice, though I come from it from a different angle than most.
    against the death penalty
    against affirmative action
    etc.

    Closer to liberal than conservative, but not exactly liberal like democrats.

    Closer to liberal imo, tha libertarian as well.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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