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Thread: House bill would make health care a right

  1. #281
    Norville Rogers
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post

    That health care presently exists outside the goverment proves that health care is something that -can- exist outside the government.

    Justry trials cannot.


    I really do not understand why you do not understand how it is that jury trials are an excluseive function of government.
    Your argument seems to be "we can't change things to be that way because it's not the way things are now."

    You said that it would be "slavery" to use tax dollars for healthcare but not for jury trials because jury trials are an exclusive function of government and health care is not. If health care were to become a right and an exclusive form of government, would funding it via tax dollars no longer be slavery?
    Last edited by Kernel Sanders; 07-20-09 at 01:07 PM.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    Your argument seems to be "we can't change things to be that way because it's not the way things are now."
    Changing things denotes that successful change leads to better things. The only way the government can add on power legally is one of two things, either to amend the constitution, thus the states have consented, or to prove that something is both necessary and proper, healthcare cannot satisfy both of those conditions, or actually, either one. Fact, government interference has ruined affordable healthcare every step of the way, fact, HMO's were created by legislation authored by Ted Kennedy in the seventies, they are typically the worst kinds of plans on the health market, but they are cheap. Fact, for Healthcare to be necessary one would have to prove that an unmolested market is in collapse, this is obviously not the case since we have plenty of examples of physicians and administrators doing what is necessary to help people, including payment plans, cash discounts, and even waiving fees when necessary. For this to be proper the Fed would have to prove that only their interference could improve things and they have undertaken the proper protocol to do such, no part of the current process has shown either requirement.

    You said that it would be "slavery" to use tax dollars for healthcare but not for jury trials because jury trials are an exclusive function of government and health care is not. If health care were to become an exclusive form of government, would funding it via tax dollars no longer be slavery?
    Again, the people are required to provide a trial by jury, and this isn't exclusive to the fed, state and local are equally required to provide, but the difference is that this is a right AND mandated to the people for an incarceration, furthermore, if you have gotten a traffic ticket, you've paid into a fund for indigent defense in most locations.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #283
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    Your argument seems to be "we can't change things to be that way because it's not the way things are now."
    No. Its not.
    My argument is clear; your deliberate misunderstandings do nothing to address it.

    You said that it would be "slavery" to use tax dollars for healthcare but not for jury trials because jury trials are an exclusive function of government and health care is not. If health care were to become a right and an exclusive form of government...
    As health care can exist outsude government (unlike jury trials), it cannot become an exclusive function of government (like jury trials).
    Last edited by Goobieman; 07-20-09 at 01:37 PM.

  4. #284
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    How could they recognize this as a right if its not in the consitution?
    The Constitution is over 200 years old, times, society, conditions were different.
    Do you fear change ?
    If so, join the crowd.

  5. #285
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    The Constitution is over 200 years old, times, society, conditions were different.
    Do you fear change ?
    If so, join the crowd.
    The 9th amendment states that not all rights are specificlally mentioned by the Constiution, and that the failure to mention a given right does not mean it does not exist.

    HOWever...
    You having a right does not equate to you having the right to have the means necessary to exercise that right provided to you by someone else.

  6. #286
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    The Constitution is over 200 years old, times, society, conditions were different.
    Do you fear change ?
    If so, join the crowd.
    Didn't you have govt in HS? I mean come on, you couldn't be that ignorant about it. When did it expire? 1788? 1790? 1800? 1820? 1850? The day you were born?

    So we actually have NO governing constitution at this time, is that it? So any new law that suits you is good?
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  7. #287
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I find these Government control arguments laughable. Let me ask you a question; do you believe that once Government manages our healthcare system they will not be in the business of denying care? Have you ever seen the comments coming from Obama and what other nations with centralized Government care do to deny coverage?
    Healthcare will be rationed in any system, and I don't know where I implied it won't. But denying people on an arbitrary basis to make money is worse than denying people on the basis of what is effective and cost effective.

    Obama himself stated that it is a waste of dollars to provide complex operations for old people who are basically going to die anyway.
    I don't really care what Obama says. If you read my posts in some other threads you would see that I advocate for NHI, but not in the exact form it's taking.

    You rail about the profit motivation behind Insurance companies in a vacuum of reality and facts and support some absurd and naive notion that once Government puts insurance companies out of business we will all get undeniable care.
    No those who need care will have access to it, as private insurance excludes on the basis of how much of a risk an individual is as opposed to how effective and cost-effective a tx/rx is.

    The FACT is that competition is what keeps costs down. Once that is removed, there will be a never ending upward spiral of costs; the only difference is that the burden of those costs will no longer be borne by the individuals or insurance companies, it will be borne mainly by those who are still employed through excessive taxation and VAT taxes on everything we purchase.
    The upward spiral of costs can be attributed to the lack of integrated and primary care. Lack of primary care is exacerbated by people being uninsured or underinsured. There is no meaningful competition in health insurance, except in the sense of encouraging pseudoinsurance, as it is mostly employer-based, but individual insurance is ridiculous in its overhead costs, and people do not generally have the expertise to evaluate the intricacies of insurance.

    Becoming a WARD of the State leads to only THREE things; lower level of quality, less choice at even greater costs.
    Not inevitably, as evidenced by the VHA after 1998.

    The notion that the Government can manage healthcare costs better than the private industry requires willful ignorance by those who do not deal in facts or the historic record.
    lol, oh is that why doctors, who would not financially benefit, and likely would earn less money from NHI, are divided on the issue? They see the faults of both private and government insurance everyday.

    The notion that we can pile another few trillion on top of the $2 trillion deficit we already have requires insanity.
    Oh you're an economist huh? As if that is worse than insurance premiums that double every decade. Part of the reason our industries cannot compete is because they're burdened by providing private health insurance with profit.

    NHI isn't the ends itself, it is a means to an end. It allows us to cause needed reforms that won't happen when profit prevails.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You get what you give with me. You came into this acting smarmy and superior, all the while not knowing what you are talking about or caring about the consequences.
    How do you know that? You think there's nobody who is informed who disagrees with you?

    Are you kidding, I knocked you out of the park.
    lol, where?

    Years of study? HAHAHA, so you've just admitted you are all theory here, try getting some practical experience in the field, or learn how our government is supposed to work, then get back to us.
    Yes, because nobody with practical experience in the field wants NHI? lol

    Years of study does not imply whether I'm all theory or not, not that I believe in the distinction. Statistics tell us more about policy than experienced anecdotes.

    Oh, and insurance exists to protect people's finances in catastrophic times, if we weren't here you'd be begging us to come back. Here's a hint for you, don't insult someone's profession, especially when you don't know what you are talking about.
    You haven't proven my level of knowledge, only your level of sensitivity.

    Yes, insurance is better than sheer out of pocket due to the unpredictable nature of healthcare costs, but I never advocated going back to out of pocket. But that says nothing about government versus private insurance.

    You probably wouldn't know the difference between an indemnity company, an HMO, a PPO, or a traditional major med. policy, but you are going to assert yet another talking point so that you look "qualified" to join this debate.
    Why speculate? You'd have to find a comment I make that shows I do not know what those things are, but no such comment exists because I do know what they are.

    Everything is stated in contract,
    Yeah, contracts they don't understand, and when they usually don't even have a choice given that it's whatever their employer uses.

    Why, so it can be run by the typical idiot that runs government and non-profit agencies, face it, government run or non-profit = ****.
    Um, yeah the VHA under Kenneth Kizer was terrible.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-20-09 at 05:01 PM.

  8. #288
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Healthcare will be rationed in any system, and I don't know where I implied it won't. But denying people on an arbitrary basis to make money is worse than denying people on the basis of what is effective and cost effective.
    Denying people based on their inability to pay for goods and services is not arbitrary.

    The upward spiral of costs can be attributed to the lack of integrated and primary care.
    The upward spiral of costs can be attributed to the vast majority of medical bills being paid by a third party. Under this system, the consumer doesnt really care how much something costs, and so those that provide the service are free to charge what they want -- the only limit to the cost is what the third parties are willing to pay, and since their resources are skewed by the number of healthy people paying into the system, they can pay a LOT more than they otherwise would, and still turn a profit.

    Thus, any system that does not get rid of third-party payment does nothing to tackle the high cost of health care.

    And, in any case, you having a right does not equate to you having the right to have the means necessary to exercise that right provided to you by someone else.

  9. #289
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The upward spiral of costs can be attributed to the vast majority of medical bills being paid by a third party. Under this system, the consumer doesnt really care how much something costs, and so those that provide the service are free to charge what they want -- the only limit to the cost is what the third parties are willing to pay, and since their resources are skewed by the number of healthy people paying into the system, they can pay a LOT more than they otherwise would, and still turn a profit.
    Exactly. This is the problem with trying to get everyone on insurance.

    Imagine if everyone had food insurance. Would people buy hamburger meat, or would they buy filet mignon? It's obvious, people would get the filet every time if cost was not an issue.

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  10. #290
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post

    Imagine if everyone had food insurance. Would people buy hamburger meat, or would they buy filet mignon? It's obvious, people would get the filet every time if cost was not an issue.
    I remember a couple of my friends were telling me about a trip to the store, they are hard workers on a budget so they bought hamburger, off brand food, and other dollar stretch measures, they watched a group in front with prime steaks, all name brand, etc. and when check out time came they brought out the food stamps to pay for these luxury food purchases. This is where it stays on topic, those same assistance abusers will now likewise be abusers of healthcare since there will no longer exist proper channels to weed out those types of patients.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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