Page 27 of 31 FirstFirst ... 172526272829 ... LastLast
Results 261 to 270 of 307

Thread: House bill would make health care a right

  1. #261
    Advisor LiveUninhibited's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-11-10 @ 03:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    549

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    There's no balance about it. What are the two sides to balance?
    Balancing potential disincentives from higher tax rates against the need to fund healthcare, education, and other things appropriate for the public sector like defense and roads. Setting the rights arguments aside, funding education is necessary to maximize meritocracy, but since greed motivates most people you will want to give them room for a drive to try to get rich. Funding healthcare is necessary to control costs, as it is largely our lack of preventive care, partly caused by access issues, and a lack of a centralized (or at least customized versions that are nationally compatible) health informatics system that contributes to overall costs.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-19-09 at 11:33 AM.

  2. #262
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    None of that requires a progressive tax rate.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #263
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    My mission isn't to gain credibility with insurance agents, it is to force them into another line of work that doesn't kill people.
    No, you don't get it, you are grossly uninformed and don't care about the results or consequences, as long as you get your own way, you've lost credibility as a debater, and I love that you went ahead and threw in an insult about my profession, that really shows you don't know **** about any level of this topic and had to resort to attacks.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  4. #264
    Advisor LiveUninhibited's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-11-10 @ 03:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    549

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    No, you don't get it, you are grossly uninformed and don't care about the results or consequences, as long as you get your own way, you've lost credibility as a debater, and I love that you went ahead and threw in an insult about my profession, that really shows you don't know **** about any level of this topic and had to resort to attacks.
    It's pretty funny that you criticize me for throwing insults and don't hesitate to use them yourself. I have not seen you refute any of my points in any way that would suggest I am uninformed. Your response is obviously an emotional one.

    Though again, I shouldn't blame you. From the years of study I have done on this topic, I am thoroughly convinced that your profession should not exist as it does in America. Just because you take that personally doesn't have anything to do with the actual soundness of my argument, only your level of sensitivity to insulting comments on the internet.

    Private, for-profit health insurance works to deny coverage to people who need it, because it threatens their bottom line. Do you really dispute that? The destruction of community rating for experience rating exacerbates the healthcare crisis in America by making sure that those who are sick and poor cannot get the care they need outside of being stabilized in the ER in a really expensive way for society (as they declare bankruptcy) that could have been avoided if they had adequate access to care. Healthcare funding needs to be profit-neutral. The provision of healthcare can be for-profit as that may encourage innovation, given adequate regulation.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-20-09 at 04:47 AM.

  5. #265
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    You can't seem to get over the assumption that what the laws says is what is right. Procedurally, perhaps we should have a healthcare amendment first, but the Constitution has no bearing on what is right and wrong.
    Smoke screen, we're a country of laws. It's not up to you to determine what is right, then force the rest to pay for it.


    The Federalist Papers were pieces of well-written propaganda. It's been awhile since I've read them. Present the applicable arguments.
    So you think by calling them propaganda, you can marginalize their truth. Foolish thought little man. The Constitution limits the power of the federal govt to impose its will.

    The current tax rate for health insurance policies is zero - they have been subsidized that way since the 1940s.
    What makes you think the govt should tax everything, you have a lots preconceived notions about what it right. Foolish notions.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #266
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    You can't seem to get over the assumption that what the laws says is what is right. Procedurally, perhaps we should have a healthcare amendment first, but the Constitution has no bearing on what is right and wrong.



    It's a matter of picking battles and citing the fine print. Most people don't really choose their healthcare anyway, as only 5% have individual plans. 51% have employer-based, and the employer's main concern has been holding down costs while offering what can be called "insurance." Obviously some are better than others, but in any case profit works against the goal of maximizing health for health insurance



    The Federalist Papers were pieces of well-written propaganda. It's been awhile since I've read them. Present the applicable arguments.



    Actually the unhealthy will cost less to the system, because there will be less of a financial barrier to preventive care, which is cheaper for the system than intervention which they cannot legally be denied when they collapse in the ER and later declare bankruptcy after 80k debt.

    It is simply not true that everybody can plan for all contingencies. Some people, even responsible people, will get screwed under the status quo.



    Underinsured means they can only afford crappy coverage, or they were not smart enough to decipher the fine print. I've read various books on healthcare. Currently reading Amazon.com: Understanding Health Policy (Lange): Thomas S. Bodenheimer, Kevin Grumbach: Books





    My point was that copays can be used for NHI as well in order to discourage overutilization.

    The current tax rate for health insurance policies is zero - they have been subsidized that way since the 1940s.

    The coercion I was referring to what anticipating the fear of the government forcing healthy choices (as they already do, without NHI). Not the about taxation.



    lol, "class warfare." That's the trump card now isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Balancing potential disincentives from higher tax rates against the need to fund healthcare, education, and other things appropriate for the public sector like defense and roads. Setting the rights arguments aside, funding education is necessary to maximize meritocracy, but since greed motivates most people you will want to give them room for a drive to try to get rich. Funding healthcare is necessary to control costs, as it is largely our lack of preventive care, partly caused by access issues, and a lack of a centralized (or at least customized versions that are nationally compatible) health informatics system that contributes to overall costs.
    I'll bet you get a hardon when you type that word centralized.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #267
    Advisor LiveUninhibited's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-11-10 @ 03:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    549

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'll bet you get a hardon when you type that word centralized.
    A better term would be universally compatible, actually. Centralized wasn't the best choice of words. Part of the VHA's success involved regionalization and competition between them. But they all used VistA (not the new version of windows, but an early form of health informatics).

  8. #268
    Advisor LiveUninhibited's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-11-10 @ 03:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    549

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Smoke screen, we're a country of laws. It's not up to you to determine what is right, then force the rest to pay for it.
    If you insist on glorifying the founding fathers, then you should remember that they were not men of laws. Under English law, they were committing treason. They were men who felt compelled to do what they thought was right when the law was wrong.


    So you think by calling them propaganda, you can marginalize their truth. Foolish thought little man. The Constitution limits the power of the federal govt to impose its will.
    lol, what's with this little man thing? Does it give you a hard on to insult people you don't know? Of course they were propaganda. They misrepresented the process of drafting the Constitution in order to gain support for the new government. I am not sure what gives you so much faith in them or the Constitution. The drafting of the Constitution was not a systematic and logical process but a matter of political compromises that led to a very imperfect system, but still better than anything else at the time.

    What makes you think the govt should tax everything, you have a lots preconceived notions about what it right. Foolish notions.
    The government should imposes taxes that do the least damage to people (progressive), and tax those things that do damage to society in order to redirect that money to help society. I don't see what's inherently wrong with that line of thinking. I don't expect spectacular efficiency from the government, but considering the massive overhead from the thousands of private insurance companies and the way they work to deny the people who need care, the government would be hard pressed to do worse.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-20-09 at 09:03 AM.

  9. #269
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Ventura California
    Last Seen
    11-15-11 @ 11:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    8,706

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Though again, I shouldn't blame you. From the years of study I have done on this topic, I am thoroughly convinced that your profession should not exist as it does in America. Just because you take that personally doesn't have anything to do with the actual soundness of my argument, only your level of sensitivity to insulting comments on the internet.

    Private, for-profit health insurance works to deny coverage to people who need it, because it threatens their bottom line. Do you really dispute that? The destruction of community rating for experience rating exacerbates the healthcare crisis in America by making sure that those who are sick and poor cannot get the care they need outside of being stabilized in the ER in a really expensive way for society (as they declare bankruptcy) that could have been avoided if they had adequate access to care. Healthcare funding needs to be profit-neutral. The provision of healthcare can be for-profit as that may encourage innovation, given adequate regulation.
    I find these Government control arguments laughable. Let me ask you a question; do you believe that once Government manages our healthcare system they will not be in the business of denying care? Have you ever seen the comments coming from Obama and what other nations with centralized Government care do to deny coverage?

    Obama himself stated that it is a waste of dollars to provide complex operations for old people who are basically going to die anyway.

    You rail about the profit motivation behind Insurance companies in a vacuum of reality and facts and support some absurd and naive notion that once Government puts insurance companies out of business we will all get undeniable care.

    The FACT is that competition is what keeps costs down. Once that is removed, there will be a never ending upward spiral of costs; the only difference is that the burden of those costs will no longer be borne by the individuals or insurance companies, it will be borne mainly by those who are still employed through excessive taxation and VAT taxes on everything we purchase.

    Becoming a WARD of the State leads to only THREE things; lower level of quality, less choice at even greater costs.

    The notion that the Government can manage healthcare costs better than the private industry requires willful ignorance by those who do not deal in facts or the historic record.

    The notion that we can pile another few trillion on top of the $2 trillion deficit we already have requires insanity.

    NOTE: The interest on the current debt amounts to $100,000,000 a day. That's right folks, one hundred million dollars a DAY. Imagine what good this money could be put to if it weren't being spent by politicians who are only interested in maintaining their political power by pandering to the ignorant masses who believe that they can get something from Government for nothing.

  10. #270
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    It's pretty funny that you criticize me for throwing insults and don't hesitate to use them yourself.
    You get what you give with me. You came into this acting smarmy and superior, all the while not knowing what you are talking about or caring about the consequences.
    I have not seen you refute any of my points in any way that would suggest I am uninformed. Your response is obviously an emotional one.
    Are you kidding, I knocked you out of the park.
    Though again, I shouldn't blame you. From the years of study I have done on this topic, I am thoroughly convinced that your profession should not exist as it does in America.
    Years of study? HAHAHA, so you've just admitted you are all theory here, try getting some practical experience in the field, or learn how our government is supposed to work, then get back to us. Oh, and insurance exists to protect people's finances in catastrophic times, if we weren't here you'd be begging us to come back.
    Just because you take that personally doesn't have anything to do with the actual soundness of my argument, only your level of sensitivity to insulting comments on the internet.
    Here's a hint for you, don't insult someone's profession, especially when you don't know what you are talking about. You probably wouldn't know the difference between an indemnity company, an HMO, a PPO, or a traditional major med. policy, but you are going to assert yet another talking point so that you look "qualified" to join this debate.
    Private, for-profit health insurance works to deny coverage to people who need it, because it threatens their bottom line.
    Everything is stated in contract, how about if you give me some kind of payout to denial percentage since you've studied this so long and know all about it. Or better yet, show me an example of a reputable company denying someone who qualified, i.e. not a pre-existing condition, not a fraudulent claim, and actually covered, cause I can show you endless data of Canada, England, etc. doing such.
    Do you really dispute that?
    Yes, I do.
    The destruction of community rating for experience rating exacerbates the healthcare crisis in America by making sure that those who are sick and poor cannot get the care they need outside of being stabilized in the ER in a really expensive way for society (as they declare bankruptcy) that could have been avoided if they had adequate access to care.
    That's a governmenet created situation, not health companies.
    Healthcare funding needs to be profit-neutral.
    Why, so it can be run by the typical idiot that runs government and non-profit agencies, face it, government run or non-profit = ****.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 07-20-09 at 12:13 PM.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

Page 27 of 31 FirstFirst ... 172526272829 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •