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Thread: House bill would make health care a right

  1. #201
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Do you have something to add, a link showing "Democrats bailing like the plague"? Anything other than personal attacks? I thought not.



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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post

    That's because many employer-provided insurance plans cover all employees without regard to health status; the fees are structured that way, and all the employees share the higher risk of those less healthy.
    That's correct, in fact, depending on how much the employer contribution is, many healthy employees are better off shopping individual, but if an employer is contributing more than 75%, most employees can't beat the price out of that market, again though, some group plans are pretty horrid, especially many HMOs.

    The only option for individuals who are either self employed or who work for an employer who does not provide health insurance is to seek a private or individual policy. Under those circumstances they are more likely to be asked health questions, and if they have health problems (more likely as one gets older), they are likely either to be rejected outright or to be offered a policy at rates that are greater than what they have left over after paying for food, rent and utilities.
    This is true, high risk plans can be a good option, one thing that I have not seen personally, but has been confirmed by many colleagues is that the worst thing many potential clients do is lie when they are not a preferred risk, they would otherwise qualify for a decent rate(considering their condition) but will be refused coverage because what they stated doesn't match up to what is found on the M.I.B. or subsequent physicals, the application process these days is more or less a character assessment.

    One of my cousins was rejected for being about 50 lbs overweight with no other health problems.
    She didn't try to get a medical waiver? Most underwriters allow for being overweight but otherwise healthy if a physician signs an affidavit.
    It's people like her, and other relatives like the one I mentioned who had a stroke, who are falling through the health insurance cracks, and private insurance seems to have had little to no interest in filling that gap.
    That is false, there are plenty of plans out there if someone is willing to look, I have seen plans allow for mild strokes, stents, cardiovascular problems, etc. They aren't going to be as low of a premium or deductible as their standard competition, but the value comes about if medical treatment is necessary.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #203
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The good news is that ALL of the major polls are showing that 60 percent of the country is against this, so Democrats in Congress are bailing on it like the plague. I'm becoming more optimistic that this thing will fail.

    Now if we can kill Obama's next $1 trillion in stimulus, perhaps there's light in the tunnel somewhere way down the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    That's funny, the Gallup poll released this week shows 56% favoring health care reform and 33% opposed. Are you one of those who thinks you can get people to believe any nonsense just by typing it?
    Poll: Americans want health care bill, but not the cost - USATODAY.com
    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Erod flatly stated that 60% of Americans oppose health care reform and that Democrats were "bailing from it like the plague". He offered no link or proof of this claim. Can you?
    I don't see where Erod flatly stated that 60% of Americans oppose health care reform.

    I see where he stated 60% of Americans oppose this.

    By this I was assuming that he was speaking of "House bill would make health care a right".


    I might be wrong, but I doubt it.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #204
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And if that doesn't help them, are you ok with children dying?

    I'm ok right now, so each and every child that dies because government help is not there is on you. You ok with that? Can you and others live with yourselves knowing a child is dying because you took away welfare?
    Absolutely.
    Because the alternative is slavery.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Ahh but the conservative mentality is those that are qualified get jobs. For those not qualified, then they fall out of the system. I'm glad you are ok with children dying to serve your political agenda.
    And I'm glad you are OK with enslaving people to serve yours.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by formerroadie View Post
    And would Jefferson had said the same thing while seeing children dying from hunger or lack of health care in the richest country in the world?
    Thomas Jefferson had been to many parts of the world, especially the rich parts. In those parts, there were untold numbers of children dying from hunger and/or lack of health care.

    And so, yes, he would have said the same thing.

  7. #207
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    [quote=LaMidRighter;1058141621]

    She didn't try to get a medical waiver? Most underwriters allow for being overweight but otherwise healthy if a physician signs an affidavit. That is false, there are plenty of plans out there if someone is willing to look, I have seen plans allow for mild strokes, stents, cardiovascular problems, etc. They aren't going to be as low of a premium or deductible as their standard competition, but the value comes about if medical treatment is necessary.

    I don't know if she tried to get a waiver.

    I have heard of rates quoted for people with health problems and they aren't just slightly higher; they are astronomical. When it comes down to deciding whether to buy insurance or have a roof over one's head and food on the table, what do you think the priority will be? Some people barely live paycheck to paycheck as it is and find health insurance (especially if they have to pay higher rates because of health problems) in the luxury category. That is the problem for many uninsured.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post

    Funny, I don't recall my employer based health plan asking me any questions about pre-existing conditions.

    They also covered my wife's pre-existing pregnancy.
    Cops, teachers, and other public servants generally have excellent coverage. Where I work, you have to either have had continuous healthcare coverage prior to their insurance or pay without getting benefits for 6 months if you had sought treatment for a preexisting condition for the past year. This is the usual policy of PacifiCare, IIRC. I had a preexisting condition but I hadnít seen the doctor in over a year. People who are self-employed or employed for a small company often cannot get coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    The question is: Was he uninsurable or did he not try hard enough? I've found companies that are the same price as a typical family major med. plan with the same benefits of that family plan. is it expensive for an individual? Yes, but less expensive than bankruptcy and a breath of fresh air to people who stuck in there and talked to me.
    Actually yes, some people literally will be turned away by every company, or at best, charged tens of thousands per year to be insured (the average for a family of 4 is ~$16k). No, not everybody can afford that.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Good, then give away your ****ing retirement pay to the children!
    Not enough people will do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This is what you call an ad hominem attack. It is a logical fallacy.

    If you can't figure out what Jefferson believes, you must have some kind of learning disability (or you only read at a 3rd grade level). I mean that in all seriousness.
    Speaking of fallacies, why is everybody appealing to the authority of Jefferson instead of arguing logically?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Perfectly logically, if I have to be enslaved to provide someone else a "right", then they can eat **** about their non-existent "right".
    Again, we rely upon people who are compensated (not slaves) to protect the rights you actually believe in, so this has no bearing upon whether or not positive rights exist.

    Under the idea that healthcare is a right, the government would be required to compensate doctors just as doctors are required to try to save somebody.

    As you were instructed, the police are an essential function of government.

    Medical care is not, never has been and never should be.
    Obviously that is your opinion, but it cannot be logically based upon your first point.


    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because they're only charitable with other people's money.
    I guess that depends on if they're rich or not. Isn't Bill Gates a democrat? (:


    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    You can start with these:

    Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1, 4 (D.C. 1981)

    California Government Code, ß 845.

    Souza v. City of Antioch, 62 California Reporter, 2d 909, 916 (Cal. App. 1997).

    Mass. Gen. Laws Ann. Ch. 258 ß 10(h).


    Ford v. Town of Grafion, 693 N.E.2d 1047 (Mass. App. 1998).
    That's too bad. I never said the law was logical. (:

    No thanks. While geography did play a role, limited government and capitalism allowed us to grow as we did.
    If you read the book, you would see that our government really does not function very well not necessarily because it is large or limited, but because it is poorly designed.

    On capitalism, itís not really what we have, but capitalism is useful for a country that values wealth like ours does. However, it must be regulated and some sectors do not function well under a pure profit motive. This is especially true of health insurance.

    "thier argument" is that of natural law.... This is still current.
    Feel free to present it.







    As a Gulf war Vet, I choose to have additional private health insurance to avoid the VA like the plague....
    Right now it might be a good idea, as Congress and the Bush Administration failed to approve extra funding that the VHA obviously needed due to the Iraq and Afghan wars. But I assume you read the link and it proved my point.


    I tried googling the rates, and it was too much a pita, perhaps you can have better luck with this.
    America is the worst on medical errors and costs in general:

    U.S. Health Care Most Expensive & Most Error Prone

    Closer to liberal imo, tha libertarian as well.
    Um, all of the social positions I mentioned were libertarian and not all were liberal. People who care more about fiscal issues, such as this one, generally call me a liberal though, as Iím fiscally liberal.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-17-09 at 01:01 PM.

  9. #209
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdzeye View Post


    I have heard of rates quoted for people with health problems and they aren't just slightly higher; they are astronomical. When it comes down to deciding whether to buy insurance or have a roof over one's head and food on the table, what do you think the priority will be? Some people barely live paycheck to paycheck as it is and find health insurance (especially if they have to pay higher rates because of health problems) in the luxury category. That is the problem for many uninsured.
    To be fair, some high-risk companies do have appreciably higher costs, I have seen some of those, I don't personally deal with those companies because it isn't fair to my client base, but there were a few companies offering policies in the 3-5h$ range, yes, that is a little pricey, but so is a hospital stay, It's all about risk and trade-off.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post


    Actually yes, some people literally will be turned away by every company, or at best, charged tens of thousands per year to be insured (the average for a family of 4 is ~$16k). No, not everybody can afford that.
    Don't try to pull that with me, I'm an agent. If you are literally turned away from every company you have much bigger problems than getting insured, it's time to have the coroner on stand by.





    Speaking of fallacies, why is everybody appealing to the authority of Jefferson instead of arguing logically?
    Because he wrote the constitution, anything that defies the founding fathers vision of the constitution is prohibited, and that is logical, trying to wriggle out of that fact is not.



    Under the idea that healthcare is a right, the government would be required to compensate doctors just as doctors are required to try to save somebody.
    Hasn't worked under Medicare, the VA, or Medicaid, what makes you think an increased consumer base would fix this, in fact, try getting on a priority list with your favorite physician or hospital under Medicare A, Medicare A/B, or Medicaid and you will normally be out by quota.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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