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Thread: House bill would make health care a right

  1. #121
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'm sorry but you soarly do not understand the Constitution. The Constitution prescribes the powers to the Federal government. It does not prescribe the rights of the People. You will not find many of the rights of the People discussed.
    And when you do, it will be in terms of the right already existing, and that the government is denied the power to act against it.

  2. #122
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    I agree that the health care as a right thing is ridiculous (still don't really know what it means either), but costing money is not the difference. A trial by jury costs taxpayer money, and is indeed a right.
    Good point, this is where it gets tricky, the government, whether local, state, or federal is required to provide due process to the accused to be executed by a jury of his peers, since this is a requirement, the trial is a right, but providing such is a mandate, interestingly, a person may waive a trial and save the taxpayers money, so it is not the same as making me buy your gun, or your radio tower, etc.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #123
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Good point, this is where it gets tricky, the government, whether local, state, or federal is required to provide due process to the accused to be executed by a jury of his peers, since this is a requirement...
    Yes. In effect, the Constitution mandates that the government(s) provide you the means to exercise these rights by creating and supporting the vehicles necessary to do so.

    This is, however, a Constitutional mandate that creates a basic function of government, the only means through which the rights in question CAN be exercised.

    As such, these examples have no bearing whatsoever on the argument as to whether or not the government can/should provide you the means to exercise your right to health care.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. In effect, the Constitution mandates that the government(s) provide you the means to exercise these rights by creating and supporting the vehicles necessary to do so.

    This is, however, a Constitutional mandate that creates a basic function of government, the only means through which the rights in question CAN be exercised.

    As such, these examples have no bearing whatsoever on the argument as to whether or not the government can/should provide you the means to exercise your right to health care.
    I was having trouble closing that thought out, perfectly stated. Thx.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  5. #125
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Will,

    As American posted........ Showing your fail..


    "If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1802. ME 10:342
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #126
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The Constitution and its amendments are drafted in highly general terms. Edmund Randolph, who wrote the first draft, explained that he had to write it this way so that it would be able to adapt to changing times and circumstances. As to whether we ought to interpret the U.S. Constitution narrowly or broadly; there was no consensus even among the Founding Fathers. It was a topic of hot debate in their time, even among those who together drafted the document, even as they were drafting it. Because of that, there is no definite or final precedent to which either liberals or conservatives can refer to justify their views of the document; the tension which exists between the two ideologies (or something like it) today went into the making of the U.S. Constitution. Because of that fact, the perspective -- "living Constitution" or "strict constitutionalism" -- which prevails at any given point in time will be the one which is most . . . I'll say 'practical'. The perspective which is most practical prevails. But that might be too generous. It might be better to say the perspective which is most powerful prevails.

    That things are not explicitly mentioned does not ultimately matter -- or, at least, it does not "have to" matter, depending on which style of interpretation is winning the American political game at the time; airlines are not explicitly mentioned, but they get grouped under a bunch of constitutional clauses anyway. The same thing can occur with health service. I already offered one possible constitutional rationale for how the health insurance program might be legitimized. But I assure you, it will, barring some unlikely upset from the U.S. Supreme Court down the road, be legitimized.
    I disagree with that premise. You will find that the founders did not intend the Constitution to be open to just any interpretation of the times and circumstances.

    "On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:449
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #127
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Well, physically yes, but not logically.
    Perfectly logically, if I have to be enslaved to provide someone else a "right", then they can eat **** about their non-existent "right".

    As you were instructed, the police are an essential function of government.

    Medical care is not, never has been and never should be.

    Whaddya wanna do, keep the useless Obama supporters around fo-ever?


    Since their lives are nasty and brutish, let's help keep them short, too.

    Seriously, I don't give a rat's behind about people too poor or too ignorant to get their own health care. It's not my problem, it's certainly not my responsibility, and it is slavery.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I quoted from a participant who made a claim that the founding fathers did not believe in positive rights. I am asking him to provide a link proving evidence of that claim. Why don't you just butt out?
    Have you managed to answer the other posters question, and prove that pink unicorns don't exist?

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I have to prove that the Founding Fathers didn't want the government to do something? That's not how they wrote. They specifically laid out those things that the government should do. If it's not there, then it can't be done.
    The fact is the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution says...."yo, dudes, if we didn't write it explicitly in the Constitution for the Federal government to do, the Federal government isn't allowed to do it and it's up to the individual states to make the decisions for themselves."

    Ergo..

    ..the Founders DID NOT believe in "positive" rights.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    At the time the founding fathers wrote the Constitution, there were 13 new states with no federal beaurocracy, no money for the military, no communication between geographic areas, not even any payment for the framers themselves. It is a bit of a reach to expect them to anticipate a day when the United States is so wealthy and connected that it is capable of insuring health care, education, and other services for its populace. However, I seriously doubt they would object to the concept, as it fits with their premise as stated in the preamble to the Constitution:
    Your seriousness is irrelevant, since your doubts are proven wrong by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

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