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House bill would make health care a right

How do you figure that one? Failure to enforce the law can come from a number of things and the police aren't the only avenue for punishment.

If I'm not mistaken the Supreme Court has ruled that police are not required to protect you.

They can't be everywhere to enforce the law, it's logistically impossible.
 
I addressed this previously. Look back a page or two.

Sorry, missed that post

Yes. In effect, the Constitution mandates that the government(s) provide you the means to exercise these rights by creating and supporting the vehicles necessary to do so.

This is, however, a Constitutional mandate that creates a basic function of government, the only means through which the rights in question CAN be exercised.

As such, these examples have no bearing whatsoever on the argument as to whether or not the government can/should provide you the means to exercise your right to health care.

I don't understand what you're saying. Why is it okay to use taxpayer dollars to provide people with a trial by jury, which they have the right to, but it would not be okay to use taxpayer dollars to provide healthcare in the event that people have a right to healthcare?
 
I don't understand what you're saying. Why is it okay to use taxpayer dollars to provide people with a trial by jury, which they have the right to, but it would not be okay to use taxpayer dollars to provide healthcare in the event that people have a right to healthcare?
Very simple, if a legal authority brings charges it is the duty of the people to prove guilt, this is done by a mandated trial, not a mandate by simple policy law, but the U.S. constitution, our social contract, we the people decided in the very beginning that innocence is to be presumed until proven otherwise and that defendents have the right to request trial, if such request is made at hearing then it must be provided by law, thus it is the duty of the government to pay for the costs associated with such. The difference with healthcare is that it falls in a catagory not compliant with the tenth amendment, it is neither a right or duty of the federal government to provide healthcare, thus it falls back to the states legally to decide whether said responsibility is to be taken on by that particular state government. This being said, a bill cannot make healthcare a right, only a constitutional amendment can, this is what makes it so great, if an amendment should pass, then that means the states have ceded said authority to the federal government via agreement and it would then become legal, unfortunately, we have politicians who don't want to go this route because it's harder for them.
 
Very simple, if a legal authority brings charges it is the duty of the people to prove guilt, this is done by a mandated trial, not a mandate by simple policy law, but the U.S. constitution, our social contract, we the people decided in the very beginning that innocence is to be presumed until proven otherwise and that defendents have the right to request trial, if such request is made at hearing then it must be provided by law, thus it is the duty of the government to pay for the costs associated with such. The difference with healthcare is that it falls in a catagory not compliant with the tenth amendment, it is neither a right or duty of the federal government to provide healthcare, thus it falls back to the states legally to decide whether said responsibility is to be taken on by that particular state government. This being said, a bill cannot make healthcare a right, only a constitutional amendment can, this is what makes it so great, if an amendment should pass, then that means the states have ceded said authority to the federal government via agreement and it would then become legal, unfortunately, we have politicians who don't want to go this route because it's harder for them.

I realize that, I was speaking in the abstract. Say there was a constitutional amendment to make healthcare a bona fide right. Goobie was saying that it wouldn't be comparable to trial by jury, and that it would be slavery to use tax dollars for this purpose. I just didn't follow his reasoning
 
I realize that, I was speaking in the abstract. Say there was a constitutional amendment to make healthcare a bona fide right. Goobie was saying that it wouldn't be comparable to trial by jury, and that it would be slavery to use tax dollars for this purpose. I just didn't follow his reasoning
I don't get that from his writings, moreso this is dealing with a bill created right, which is dangerously incompatible with our fundamental legal protocol. I'll let Gobie answer to his intent however.
 
in sweden all healtcare is tax financed, and everyone has the right to free healthcare :roll:
 
Congratulations, it only took you ten posts to lose all credibility with me, I'm done, you are a true believer and don't care about protocol as long as you get your way, there is nothing to discuss, you are wrong. Good bye.

My mission isn't to gain credibility with insurance agents, it is to force them into another line of work that doesn't kill people.

You DO have a right to a car, as much as you have a right to any other piece of property, and everyone has access to that right, as anyone can own a car.
Just like health care.
Owning a car is a right. Everyone has that right.
Driving a car -- on public roads -- is a privilege.
Health care is a right. Everyone has that right.
Health care -- paid for by someone else -- is a privilege.

Technically correct on the car idea, but of what use is a car if you cannot drive it on public roads? That's as stupid as telling gay people to marry the opposite sex, but that's another thread.

Having something "paid for by somebody else" isn't really a criteria for privilege, as lawyers appointed by the state to defend you are paid for by somebody else.

Make up your mind -- do you want to give everyone the privilege of free health care, or not?

There is no inconsistency here. NHI, and having access to healthcare, does not and cannot mean that healthcare is "free," it's still a matter of who pays for it. I advocate to use the rich via our progressive tax system to make sure the poor can access it, but that doesn't mean I would oppose copays that they can afford to discourage overutilization, or VATs to make people who make unhealthy choices in food or drink pay for it as well.
 
There is no inconsistency here. NHI, and having access to healthcare, does not and cannot mean that healthcare is "free," it's still a matter of who pays for it. I advocate to use the rich via our progressive tax system to make sure the poor can access it, but that doesn't mean I would oppose copays that they can afford to discourage overutilization, or VATs to make people who make unhealthy choices in food or drink pay for it as well.


So you support a Robin Hood style government?
 
So you support a Robin Hood style government?

One could argue that anybody who supports progressive taxation does. Of course it can be taken too far, but there's nothing wrong with diminishing returns for greater income as long as a balance is struck. That's where the real challenge comes.
 
One could argue that anybody who supports progressive taxation does. Of course it can be taken too far, but there's nothing wrong with diminishing returns for greater income as long as a balance is struck. That's where the real challenge comes.

There's no balance about it. What are the two sides to balance?
 
There's no balance about it. What are the two sides to balance?

Balancing potential disincentives from higher tax rates against the need to fund healthcare, education, and other things appropriate for the public sector like defense and roads. Setting the rights arguments aside, funding education is necessary to maximize meritocracy, but since greed motivates most people you will want to give them room for a drive to try to get rich. Funding healthcare is necessary to control costs, as it is largely our lack of preventive care, partly caused by access issues, and a lack of a centralized (or at least customized versions that are nationally compatible) health informatics system that contributes to overall costs.
 
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None of that requires a progressive tax rate.
 
My mission isn't to gain credibility with insurance agents, it is to force them into another line of work that doesn't kill people.
No, you don't get it, you are grossly uninformed and don't care about the results or consequences, as long as you get your own way, you've lost credibility as a debater, and I love that you went ahead and threw in an insult about my profession, that really shows you don't know **** about any level of this topic and had to resort to attacks.
 
No, you don't get it, you are grossly uninformed and don't care about the results or consequences, as long as you get your own way, you've lost credibility as a debater, and I love that you went ahead and threw in an insult about my profession, that really shows you don't know **** about any level of this topic and had to resort to attacks.

It's pretty funny that you criticize me for throwing insults and don't hesitate to use them yourself. I have not seen you refute any of my points in any way that would suggest I am uninformed. Your response is obviously an emotional one.

Though again, I shouldn't blame you. From the years of study I have done on this topic, I am thoroughly convinced that your profession should not exist as it does in America. Just because you take that personally doesn't have anything to do with the actual soundness of my argument, only your level of sensitivity to insulting comments on the internet.

Private, for-profit health insurance works to deny coverage to people who need it, because it threatens their bottom line. Do you really dispute that? The destruction of community rating for experience rating exacerbates the healthcare crisis in America by making sure that those who are sick and poor cannot get the care they need outside of being stabilized in the ER in a really expensive way for society (as they declare bankruptcy) that could have been avoided if they had adequate access to care. Healthcare funding needs to be profit-neutral. The provision of healthcare can be for-profit as that may encourage innovation, given adequate regulation.
 
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You can't seem to get over the assumption that what the laws says is what is right. Procedurally, perhaps we should have a healthcare amendment first, but the Constitution has no bearing on what is right and wrong.
Smoke screen, we're a country of laws. It's not up to you to determine what is right, then force the rest to pay for it.


The Federalist Papers were pieces of well-written propaganda. It's been awhile since I've read them. Present the applicable arguments.
So you think by calling them propaganda, you can marginalize their truth. Foolish thought little man. The Constitution limits the power of the federal govt to impose its will.

The current tax rate for health insurance policies is zero - they have been subsidized that way since the 1940s.
What makes you think the govt should tax everything, you have a lots preconceived notions about what it right. Foolish notions.
 
You can't seem to get over the assumption that what the laws says is what is right. Procedurally, perhaps we should have a healthcare amendment first, but the Constitution has no bearing on what is right and wrong.



It's a matter of picking battles and citing the fine print. Most people don't really choose their healthcare anyway, as only 5% have individual plans. 51% have employer-based, and the employer's main concern has been holding down costs while offering what can be called "insurance." Obviously some are better than others, but in any case profit works against the goal of maximizing health for health insurance



The Federalist Papers were pieces of well-written propaganda. It's been awhile since I've read them. Present the applicable arguments.



Actually the unhealthy will cost less to the system, because there will be less of a financial barrier to preventive care, which is cheaper for the system than intervention which they cannot legally be denied when they collapse in the ER and later declare bankruptcy after 80k debt.

It is simply not true that everybody can plan for all contingencies. Some people, even responsible people, will get screwed under the status quo.



Underinsured means they can only afford crappy coverage, or they were not smart enough to decipher the fine print. I've read various books on healthcare. Currently reading Amazon.com: Understanding Health Policy (Lange): Thomas S. Bodenheimer, Kevin Grumbach: Books





My point was that copays can be used for NHI as well in order to discourage overutilization.

The current tax rate for health insurance policies is zero - they have been subsidized that way since the 1940s.

The coercion I was referring to what anticipating the fear of the government forcing healthy choices (as they already do, without NHI). Not the about taxation.



lol, "class warfare." That's the trump card now isn't it?

Balancing potential disincentives from higher tax rates against the need to fund healthcare, education, and other things appropriate for the public sector like defense and roads. Setting the rights arguments aside, funding education is necessary to maximize meritocracy, but since greed motivates most people you will want to give them room for a drive to try to get rich. Funding healthcare is necessary to control costs, as it is largely our lack of preventive care, partly caused by access issues, and a lack of a centralized (or at least customized versions that are nationally compatible) health informatics system that contributes to overall costs.
I'll bet you get a hardon when you type that word centralized.
 
I'll bet you get a hardon when you type that word centralized.

A better term would be universally compatible, actually. Centralized wasn't the best choice of words. Part of the VHA's success involved regionalization and competition between them. But they all used VistA (not the new version of windows, but an early form of health informatics).
 
Smoke screen, we're a country of laws. It's not up to you to determine what is right, then force the rest to pay for it.

If you insist on glorifying the founding fathers, then you should remember that they were not men of laws. Under English law, they were committing treason. They were men who felt compelled to do what they thought was right when the law was wrong.


So you think by calling them propaganda, you can marginalize their truth. Foolish thought little man. The Constitution limits the power of the federal govt to impose its will.

lol, what's with this little man thing? Does it give you a hard on to insult people you don't know? Of course they were propaganda. They misrepresented the process of drafting the Constitution in order to gain support for the new government. I am not sure what gives you so much faith in them or the Constitution. The drafting of the Constitution was not a systematic and logical process but a matter of political compromises that led to a very imperfect system, but still better than anything else at the time.

What makes you think the govt should tax everything, you have a lots preconceived notions about what it right. Foolish notions.

The government should imposes taxes that do the least damage to people (progressive), and tax those things that do damage to society in order to redirect that money to help society. I don't see what's inherently wrong with that line of thinking. I don't expect spectacular efficiency from the government, but considering the massive overhead from the thousands of private insurance companies and the way they work to deny the people who need care, the government would be hard pressed to do worse.
 
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Though again, I shouldn't blame you. From the years of study I have done on this topic, I am thoroughly convinced that your profession should not exist as it does in America. Just because you take that personally doesn't have anything to do with the actual soundness of my argument, only your level of sensitivity to insulting comments on the internet.

Private, for-profit health insurance works to deny coverage to people who need it, because it threatens their bottom line. Do you really dispute that? The destruction of community rating for experience rating exacerbates the healthcare crisis in America by making sure that those who are sick and poor cannot get the care they need outside of being stabilized in the ER in a really expensive way for society (as they declare bankruptcy) that could have been avoided if they had adequate access to care. Healthcare funding needs to be profit-neutral. The provision of healthcare can be for-profit as that may encourage innovation, given adequate regulation.

I find these Government control arguments laughable. Let me ask you a question; do you believe that once Government manages our healthcare system they will not be in the business of denying care? Have you ever seen the comments coming from Obama and what other nations with centralized Government care do to deny coverage?

Obama himself stated that it is a waste of dollars to provide complex operations for old people who are basically going to die anyway.

You rail about the profit motivation behind Insurance companies in a vacuum of reality and facts and support some absurd and naive notion that once Government puts insurance companies out of business we will all get undeniable care.

The FACT is that competition is what keeps costs down. Once that is removed, there will be a never ending upward spiral of costs; the only difference is that the burden of those costs will no longer be borne by the individuals or insurance companies, it will be borne mainly by those who are still employed through excessive taxation and VAT taxes on everything we purchase.

Becoming a WARD of the State leads to only THREE things; lower level of quality, less choice at even greater costs.

The notion that the Government can manage healthcare costs better than the private industry requires willful ignorance by those who do not deal in facts or the historic record.

The notion that we can pile another few trillion on top of the $2 trillion deficit we already have requires insanity.

NOTE: The interest on the current debt amounts to $100,000,000 a day. That's right folks, one hundred million dollars a DAY. Imagine what good this money could be put to if it weren't being spent by politicians who are only interested in maintaining their political power by pandering to the ignorant masses who believe that they can get something from Government for nothing.
 
It's pretty funny that you criticize me for throwing insults and don't hesitate to use them yourself.
You get what you give with me. You came into this acting smarmy and superior, all the while not knowing what you are talking about or caring about the consequences.
I have not seen you refute any of my points in any way that would suggest I am uninformed. Your response is obviously an emotional one.
Are you kidding, I knocked you out of the park.
Though again, I shouldn't blame you. From the years of study I have done on this topic, I am thoroughly convinced that your profession should not exist as it does in America.
Years of study? HAHAHA, so you've just admitted you are all theory here, try getting some practical experience in the field, or learn how our government is supposed to work, then get back to us. Oh, and insurance exists to protect people's finances in catastrophic times, if we weren't here you'd be begging us to come back.
Just because you take that personally doesn't have anything to do with the actual soundness of my argument, only your level of sensitivity to insulting comments on the internet.
Here's a hint for you, don't insult someone's profession, especially when you don't know what you are talking about. You probably wouldn't know the difference between an indemnity company, an HMO, a PPO, or a traditional major med. policy, but you are going to assert yet another talking point so that you look "qualified" to join this debate.
Private, for-profit health insurance works to deny coverage to people who need it, because it threatens their bottom line.
Everything is stated in contract, how about if you give me some kind of payout to denial percentage since you've studied this so long and know all about it.:roll: Or better yet, show me an example of a reputable company denying someone who qualified, i.e. not a pre-existing condition, not a fraudulent claim, and actually covered, cause I can show you endless data of Canada, England, etc. doing such.
Do you really dispute that?
Yes, I do.
The destruction of community rating for experience rating exacerbates the healthcare crisis in America by making sure that those who are sick and poor cannot get the care they need outside of being stabilized in the ER in a really expensive way for society (as they declare bankruptcy) that could have been avoided if they had adequate access to care.
That's a governmenet created situation, not health companies.
Healthcare funding needs to be profit-neutral.
Why, so it can be run by the typical idiot that runs government and non-profit agencies, face it, government run or non-profit = ****.
 
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I don't understand what you're saying. Why is it okay to use taxpayer dollars to provide people with a trial by jury
Trial by jury, and all other associated rights, exist only because the government exists, as trials (et al) are a function of government. As such, these rights are necessarily a function of government, which necessarily requires taxation (of some sort) to exist.

Health care is not.
 
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I realize that, I was speaking in the abstract. Say there was a constitutional amendment to make healthcare a bona fide right. Goobie was saying that it wouldn't be comparable to trial by jury, and that it would be slavery to use tax dollars for this purpose. I just didn't follow his reasoning
The part you're missing is that government HAS to privde the means to exercise the right to a just trial, as the only way a jury trial can exist is through government.
 
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Why couldn't health care be a government function, and why couldn't the free market provide trials?
 
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Why couldn't the free market provide trials?
No access to criminal courts, only a legally appointed authority has such powers under the founding of this country, the way the red-light camera companies get away with existing in the U.S. is to do everything from civil court and credit law, they basically coerce you to pay the fines with no criminal recourse, so they are allowed to operate in many states that way, it would be the same thing with free market trials.
 
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