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Thread: House bill would make health care a right

  1. #101
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I have to prove that the Founding Fathers didn't want the government to do something? That's not how they wrote. They specifically laid out those things that the government should do. If it's not there, then it can't be done.
    Technically, it laid out what the federal government should do and if it's not there it is left to the individual States to decide unless expressly prohibited.

    Only an amendment would really grant federal authority over an unmentioned situation.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Technically, it laid out what the federal government should do and if it's not there it is left to the individual States to decide unless expressly prohibited.

    Only an amendment would really grant federal authority over an unmentioned situation.
    Yeah, I guess I could have been more explicit.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #103
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Yeah, I guess I could have been more explicit.
    I only mentioned it because, to me, that's the beauty of the design.

  4. #104
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I have to prove that the Founding Fathers didn't want the government to do something? That's not how they wrote. They specifically laid out those things that the government should do. If it's not there, then it can't be done.
    At the time the founding fathers wrote the Constitution, there were 13 new states with no federal beaurocracy, no money for the military, no communication between geographic areas, not even any payment for the framers themselves. It is a bit of a reach to expect them to anticipate a day when the United States is so wealthy and connected that it is capable of insuring health care, education, and other services for its populace. However, I seriously doubt they would object to the concept, as it fits with their premise as stated in the preamble to the Constitution:
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Necessary and proper clause paired with any number of the other clauses (especially the commerce clause) makes anything possible. A constitutional rationale for this program will be found, if it hasn't already. Hell, the equal rights clause might even come into play.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-16-09 at 01:30 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Necessary and proper clause paired with any number of the other clauses (especially the commerce clause) makes anything possible.
    Please backup this assertion.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    At the time the founding fathers wrote the Constitution, there were 13 new states with no federal beaurocracy, no money for the military, no communication between geographic areas, not even any payment for the framers themselves. It is a bit of a reach to expect them to anticipate a day when the United States is so wealthy and connected that it is capable of insuring health care, education, and other services for its populace. However, I seriously doubt they would object to the concept, as it fits with their premise as stated in the preamble to the Constitution:
    No payment for the military, yet paying for the military is in the constitution.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #108
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I think the founding fathers would agree that a nation is obligated to provide whatever positive rights it is capable of, and that the nation they founded, in the 21st century, should have made great strides in "promoting the general welfare".
    Because it only wastes a little bit of my time, I will challenge you to show this to be true.
    I eagerly await the dismal failure that will be your response.

  9. #109
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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Please backup this assertion.
    Should be self-evident. The necessary and proper clause basically makes it so there is no limit on the strength or universality of laws Congress can draft to execute the powers apportioned to it in the U.S. Constitution, including the amendments. After that, it is a "simple" matter of finding a clause somewhere which seems to provide a precedent for the establishment of a nationalized health care service. One comes to mind in the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment or any number of the clauses which concern Congress's authority to see to the security of the American people or both or something else; since health care is fundamental to leading a safe and civic-minded life, and since insurance companies discriminate based on income or age, it can be viewed as an obligation of the federal government to provide affordable insurance for all persons not able to acquire it in the private sector.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-16-09 at 01:43 PM.

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    Re: House bill would make health care a right

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Should be self-evident. The necessary and proper clause basically makes it so there is no limit on the strength or universality of laws Congress can draft to execute the powers apportioned to it in the U.S. Constitution, including the amendments. After that, it is a "simple" matter of finding a clause somewhere which seems to provide a precedent for the establishment of a national health care industry. One comes to mind in the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment or any number of the clauses which concern Congress's authority to see to the security of the American people or both or something else; since health care is fundamental to having a safe life, and since insurance companies discriminate based on income or age, it can be viewed as an obligation of the federal government to provide affordable insurance for all persons not able to acquire it in the private sector.
    Take a look at this thread.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/govern...vs-states.html

    The Constitution is not a document giving unlimited power to the federal government. Not even close.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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