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Thread: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    I guess I fail to understand how laws that are placed to protect your constitutional rights are based upon morality.


    Other than the fact of it's a simple right / wrong question... should people be able to murder? No. Should people be able to rob what's rightfully earned from others? No. Should people be able to tell me how I should live my life? Unless I'm a danger to society, Nope. (All of those acts, directly infringe upon my rights as an American Citizen)

    So I guess I don't understand your broad position of all laws are based on morality.
    You have to toss out this whole idea that morality is subjective.

    Using your question as an example: Nearly every species on the planet has a built in survival instinct. Logically that instinct within those species who develop societies will permeate into that society's rules; from ants and hamsters to dolphins and humans.

    Members of the species who follow that inherent, built in "moral code" don't need external rules to point out behavior which have proven to benefit that society.

    Those individual members who are not in touch with that instinct need those external rules since their ability to instinctively follow them on their own is diminished.

    Hence, "the law is for the lawless".
    Last edited by Jerry; 07-14-09 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #62
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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Irrelevant to my question, which you did not answer.
    Sure it does, government intervention in health care is a bad thing, we can both agree.. is it not?

    (granted, at least it's at the right level this time... and it's my state that's passing this.. instead of the federal government)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You have to toss out this whole idea that morality is subjective.

    Using your question as an example: Nearly every species on the planet has a built in survival instinct. Logically that instinct within those species who develop societies will permeate into that society's rules; from ants and hamsters to dolphins and humans.

    Members of the species who follow that inherent, built in "moral code" don't need external rules to point out behavior which have proven to benefit that society.

    Those individual members who are not in touch with that instinct need those external rules since their ability to instinctively follow them on their own is diminished.

    Hence, "the law is for the lawless".
    Okay, that makes more sense.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    I guess I fail to understand how laws that are placed to protect your constitutional rights are based upon morality.


    Other than the fact of it's a simple right / wrong question... should people be able to murder? No. Should people be able to rob what's rightfully earned from others? No. Should people be able to tell me how I should live my life? Unless I'm a danger to society, Nope.

    So I guess I don't understand your broad position of all laws are based on morality.
    I can attempt to explain it as I would to a very small child I suppose.
    The idea “right or wrong,” outside of something like Mathematics, is a moral precept. There have been many societies in which it would have been deemed perfectly “right” for the more powerful to own you body, mind and soul. Any statement in such settings to the contrary would have been seen as ridiculous. The law, as a reflection of the prevailing morality would have supported the ruling class.



    Your rights would have been, in their entirety, to serve and obey. This would have been the law.



    At some point, new moralities arose, most of them, especially those relating to universality of rights for all classes from Religion. A few secular moral codes arose, for instance, those that promulgated genocide, eugenics, Communism and the Terror in Post-Revolutionary France.



    As these moralities arose, they codified themselves by passing a series of societal rules, with attached penalties which are of course our modern body of laws.



    I don't know how to make it any simpler for you.
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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    Sure it does, government intervention in health care is a bad thing, we can both agree.. is it not?
    So.... answer my question.
    I'll re-word it to better reflect the context in which it was asked:
    Whats wrong with a 24-hour waiting period for an (on-demand) abortion?

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I can attempt to explain it as I would to a very small child I suppose.
    The idea “right or wrong,” outside of something like Mathematics, is a moral precept. There have been many societies in which it would have been deemed perfectly “right” for the more powerful to own you body, mind and soul. Any statement in such settings to the contrary would have been seen as ridiculous. The law, as a reflection of the prevailing morality would have supported the ruling class.



    Your rights would have been, in their entirety, to serve and obey. This would have been the law.



    At some point, new moralities arose, most of them, especially those relating to universality of rights for all classes from Religion. A few secular moral codes arose, for instance, those that promulgated genocide, eugenics, Communism and the Terror in Post-Revolutionary France.



    As these moralities arose, they codified themselves by passing a series of societal rules, with attached penalties which are of course our modern body of laws.



    I don't know how to make it any simpler for you.
    Jerry did a pretty good job without the condescending tone.. but thanks anyway.

    And yes, I concede to your point about laws being a moral institution.

    I guess I'm more frustrated with the idea that republicans are always whining about there being too much government.. then they turn around and pull **** like this.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    So.... answer my question.
    I'll re-word it to better reflect the context in which it was asked:
    Whats wrong with a 24-hour waiting period for an (on-demand) abortion?
    Other than the fact that the local government is interceding in private citizen's lives an choices more than they should be?
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Seriously?

    The party of liberty / freedom, and all they ****ing worry about is imposing their moral beliefs on society? Jesus ****ing christ. The repukes wonder why everyone hated them this last election cycle. blah.

    This also gives doctors / pharmacists the right to deny you treatment / plan b (cause plan b is abortion)... alsdfkjasldfkjasdflkjasdflkjasdlfj ****ing idiot ass conservatives.


    CCW in bars / restaurants is a great thing, hopefully now we'll not have anymore mass murders like in lubbock or liddy I can't remember Texas where a gunman went into a Luby's and opened fire. Keeping in mind that CCWers can't drink.. and well.. they have to have a legal CCW.. in the state.
    I don't have a problem with having to notify parents, or the 24 hour waiting period but I do disagree with having to have parental consent for it.

    It's a very gray area for me in that I understand the need for parental rights, but then I also do not agree with forcing a girl to go through with a pregnancy she doesn't want just because her parents want her to.

    Now can someone clarify on this bill whether they can carry a concealed weapon into a bar now, or just a restaurant that happens to serve alcohol.

    If it is a place (Say like Applebees or Chilis) that they can carry in now I don't have a problem with that. However, I do not like the idea of being able to carry in a bar that is not considered a restaurant.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 07-14-09 at 01:13 PM.

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    Jerry did a pretty good job without the condescending tone.. but thanks anyway.

    And yes, I concede to your point about laws being a moral institution.

    I guess I'm more frustrated with the idea that republicans are always whining about there being too much government.. then they turn around and pull **** like this.
    Republicans are all about big government, though

  9. #69
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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    Other than the fact that the local government is interceding in private citizen's lives an choices more than they should be?
    Wait, no, they're freeing up a person's choice to carry...I don't understand.

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    Re: Governor signs bills on guns, abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I don't have a problem with having to notify parents, or the 24 hour waiting period but I do disagree with having to have parental consent for it.

    It's a very gray area for me in that I understand the need for parental rights, but then I also do not agree with forcing a girl to go through with a pregnancy she doesn't want just because her parents want her to.

    Now can someone clarify on this bill whether they can carry a concealed weapon into a bar now, or just a restaurant that happens to serve alcohol.

    If it is a place (Say like Applebees or Chilis) that they can carry in now I don't have a problem with that. However, I do not like the idea of being able to carry in a bar that is not considered a restaurant.

    The bill doesn't differentiate between either institution... And it shouldn't. If you're responsible enough to conceal carry in a place that serves alcohol.. why shouldn't you be allowed to carry in a place specifically intended for distribution / consumption of alcohol?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Republicans are all about big government, though
    That's how it would seem... At least here.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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