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Thread: C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leaders

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It just seriously blows my mind that you're arguing that the CIA and military have no idea what they're doing and should listen to you instead. It's like me trying to tell a radiologist what he's looking at on the film.
    I know what you mean. The people in the military and CIA are experts but there will always be civilians with no military background who think they know more about war than a warrior himself.

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    You know what, I don't really need to reply to each part of your post individually, because one thing really covers it all: this isn't a ground war in the conventional sense.
    It doesn't matter that this is an unconventional fight. As I've already pointed out, the same principles apply to the battlefield. Yes, it's still a, "battlefield", although it's not configured in the Napolianic sense of the term.

    The frontlines are so blurred, neither side can find them, and neither side can define them. We cannot operate against a counter-insurgency like we would a standing army, and thats pretty much what you are saying we should do. 5 elements of combat, paralyze combat units, etc.
    Either you haven't read what I've written, or it went right over your head. 1) At no point did I say we should use the same tactics against an unconventional force as we would a conventional, i.e. Warsaw Pact, force. 2) What I have said, is that the combat tactics change, but the principles of combat do not. If you're not familiar with them, they are: Objective, Offensive, Mass, Economy of force, Maneuver, Unity of Command, Security, Surprise, Simplicity. Neither does that fact that logistics is the backbone of any force. It doesn't matter how tough, cool, smart, dedicated, fanatical, or willing to die a soldier is, he has to eat, he has to have ammo. Even the most dedicated soldier, who will readily give his life on the battlefield, isn't ready to starve to death. Nor is he ready to fight the enemy with no ammo. That's a fact, I don;t care what PC, Libbo history book you were educated with.

    The last time we faced anything like what we face in Afghanistan is Iraq, and as you can probably tell, pretty much all we can do is send as many men into the area as possible. All we can really do is dissuade them from fighting us there, and maybe persuade them to fight in more favorable terms. What those are, don't ask me.
    Yes, we dissuaded them from fighting us there, on their terms. We did it by killing the hell out of their rank and file. They couldn't sustain their combat operations against us, because we took away their combat power. We took away their combat power to the point they could no longer engage our forces. American soldiers are the all-time experts on counter-insurgency warfare. No other military in the history of the world has the counter-insurgency experience that the United States military has.

    And unless you misread/ignored a lot of what I've been saying, the exact problem is that everyone isn't a terrorist in Afghanistan.
    I haven't misread, nor ignored anything you've posted. All I've done is recognized the error in your thought process.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Then what operation are you talking about? I'm talking about every single operation that should take place in the border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan, which would concern the operation this thread is about. So what other operation are you talking about?
    I'm talking about CIA's covert operation to zap selected terrorist targets. It's in the OP, you can read all about it.


    I posted several things. You failed to address them.
    I've addressed all of your opinions.

    No longer safe havens. Gee, how'd that **** happen?



    Your expanding the parameters of who is and who isn't the enemy to encompass way too wide of a scope. Polls conducted in 2004 found numbers like 72% or 84% of Sunnis oppose the American presence and some 36% find attacks acceptable. This was an effect of the CPA's alienation of the Sunni community... So your answer is to label them as combatants and say they are legitimate targets? Nice try... you are the unbelievably naive one.
    On the battlefield, when you and your buddy's life hangs in the balance, your polls mean exactly, dog ****. If you see someone supplying the enemy, carrying ammo for the enemy, etc., they become a legit target.

    BTW, when you've taken someone's life in the service of the country, or when your young ass loses your cherry to your high school sweetheart, then you can call me naive. Until then, you can stowe that bull****.


    Its genocide when virtually an entire religious sect opposed the occupation and you respond by labeling them all combatants. But no, its very black and white, right? Civilians and combatants are clearly marked. Your naivete is being exuded at its highest.
    Was it genocide when we invaded Germany in 1944? We didn't make a distinction then.




    What are you even talking about? Victory in what? Close quarter combat?... What? Victory is achieved in a number of ways... but it also depends on what degree or what objective you are victorious in... your statement here makes little sense.


    You completely disacknowledged what I said and just went back to "killing people wins wars". When its an insurgency, killing people can lose your war just as much as win it. You don't understand counterinsurgency at all.

    Let me help you:Introduction to Insurgencies and how to defeat them




    But tactical victory did not give way to strategic advances. Without a coersive strategy, MACV simply sought to rack up body counts. Tactical victories can also be counterproductive to strategic success, especially when using overly-agressive tactics that make civilians more likely to become insurgents. Such was true, without a strategy and with many units that failed to understand counterinsurgency and endorsed overly agressive tactics, in the first 20 months of the Iraq war.


    PS: There is a point of ignorance that is reasonable when defending a point. Try not to cross that line.[/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I'm talking about CIA's covert operation to zap selected terrorist targets. It's in the OP, you can read all about it.
    Which took place in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan so would have to rely on UAV support and not long range artillery or manned aircraft like you claimed.

    Case closed.

    I've addressed all of your opinions.
    This right here is as much as you have adressed my "opinions". Your ignorant and your view is not shaped by substantial evidence.

    No longer safe havens. Gee, how'd that **** happen?
    Your original statement:"They were allowed to used as safe havens, because no one wanted to hose the place down, in fear that there might be collateral damage." Completely false and proved so. What's your response? Another random and useless statement.

    On the battlefield, when you and your buddy's life hangs in the balance, your polls mean exactly, dog ****. If you see someone supplying the enemy, carrying ammo for the enemy, etc., they become a legit target.
    Again, your cinematic view of war only proves your naivete. War is not constant combat. I am talking about war... you are now narrowing that down to combat. Stop trying to change the subject and just address the point if you disagree with it.

    BTW, when you've taken someone's life in the service of the country, or when your young ass loses your cherry to your high school sweetheart, then you can call me naive. Until then, you can stowe that bull****
    Reverting to my age to defend your argument proves your lack of evidence... Yeah, because having sex is really relevant to the war in Iraq.

    How bout this:Until you read a ****ing book on Iraq or pick up a goddamn newspaper, don't try arguing a point on it because you just look like a bigot.

    Was it genocide when we invaded Germany in 1944? We didn't make a distinction then.
    Great... more WWII analogies. Let me reiterate this point again: AN INVASION IS NOT THE SAME AS AN INSURGENCY. If we were arguing about the Iraq invasion, these analogies would be relevant. If you compared Iraq to the Allied occupation of Germany, these analogies would be relevant. Otherwise, there pointless.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    This right here is as much as you have adressed my "opinions". Your ignorant and your view is not shaped by substantial evidence.
    Ok, tell ya what, boy. When you get your first piece of ass and make your first kill, let me know. Till then, you're just a punk ass kid that's too smart for his own good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Ok, tell ya what, boy. When you get your first piece of ass and make your first kill, let me know. Till then, you're just a punk ass kid that's too smart for his own good.
    Are you even a veteran of combat? Doubting it...

    Whatever man, I didn't intend to get in some heated convo with you... you made it what it was. I was just laying out the facts and saying some of your views were naive and you started to revert to ad homm and talking about popping girls cherries. Whatever bro.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Are you even a veteran of combat? Doubting it...
    As if you are one to judge? You still live with your parents!

    Whatever man, I didn't intend to get in some heated convo with you... you made it what it was. I was just laying out the facts and saying some of your views were naive and you started to revert to ad homm and talking about popping girls cherries. Whatever bro.
    Um, no, you called me ignorant. I cut you some slack, because you're just a ****ing kid, but when you wanna call me ignorant, then it's time to cut your young ass loose. When you get a little more up-bringing from you mommy and daddy, come see me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    As if you are one to judge? You still live with your parents!
    You don't have a veteran tag. You know little about the military. Nah... your not a veteran.

    Um, no, you called me ignorant. I cut you some slack, because you're just a ****ing kid, but when you wanna call me ignorant, then it's time to cut your young ass loose. When you get a little more up-bringing from you mommy and daddy, come see me.
    I told you not to cross that line. Then you responded by proving my point and crossing that line. You don't have anything to back-up your bull**** claims so you just attack my age.

    Good one... Again, when you read a book or two and pick up the daily newspaper then maybe you won't sound like such a bigot and won't spew out bull**** all the time. Maybe.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leaders

    Moderator's Warning:
    C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leaders Cool down.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Counter-Insurgency

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It just seriously blows my mind that you're arguing that the CIA and military have no idea what they're doing and should listen to you instead. It's like me trying to tell a radiologist what he's looking at on the film.
    What I am saying is what they have been using since we got into Iraq. You need as many men as possible, and you need as many supplies as possible. What Apdst has essentially been doing is treating this like a conventional war, where you can actually take away certain combat essentials. Here, we can't.
    Veni. Vidi. Vici.
    -Gaius Julius Caesar
    The Only Thing to Fear is Fear Itself.
    -Franklin Delano Roosevelt

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