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Thread: C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leaders

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    Re: C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    When you send the military out to hunt down and kill the enemy, it's warfare.
    Not in the context your applying here. You're taking the macho approach of "war is hell, people die, **** happens." Warfare is not just "warfare." There is conventional, unconventional, asymmetrical, etc. Counter terrorist operations are by design very pointed operations designed to take out specific targets. They involve covert and overt ops, but almost always have a very specific target(s). Collateral damage in these kinds of operations is not "acceptable" as you seem think it is. Hellfire missiles fired at heat signatures doesn't always work out like you want it to.

    Terrorist organizations must be dealt with differently than legitimate military organizations because of their very nature. Collateral damage and innocent deaths among the civilian population exacerbates the problem that terrorism causes. Conventional tactics involving air strikes, cruise missiles, drone attacks...those are not effective counter terrorism weapons (unless you know the terrorist is hiding all by his lonesome or with his pals). JDAM's on a village or mosque do not help defeat terrorism when you kill and maim innocents. It fertilizes it.

    You can save the callous, gung ho oratory for someone who truly doesn't understand the subject. It's not nearly as simple as you want it to be.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 07-17-09 at 03:14 AM.
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  2. #152
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    Re: C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Not in the context your applying here. You're taking the macho approach of "war is hell, people die, **** happens." Warfare is not just "warfare." There is conventional, unconventional, asymmetrical, etc. Counter terrorist operations are by design very pointed operations designed to take out specific targets. They involve covert and overt ops, but almost always have a very specific target(s).
    An assissination program is a very surgical strategy. And, as far as we know, this operation was conducted in such a manner. As far as I know it wasn't executed using airstrikes to attack area targets, but rather using precise and accurate long range fire to engage and defeat a point target.



    Terrorist organizations must be dealt with differently than legitimate military organizations because of their very nature. Collateral damage and innocent deaths among the civilian population exacerbates the problem that terrorism causes. Conventional tactics involving air strikes, cruise missiles, drone attacks...those are not effective counter terrorism weapons (unless you know the terrorist is hiding all by his lonesome or with his pals). JDAM's on a village or mosque do not help defeat terrorism when you kill and maim innocents. It fertilizes it.

    You can save the callous, gung ho oratory for someone who truly doesn't understand the subject. It's not nearly as simple as you want it to be.

    As has been seen in Iraq, sooner, or later the local indiginous personel will get tired of getting blown up, just because some terrorist decided to use their house for cover. You're mistaken when you claim that collateral damage is self defeating. It's only self defeating when you kill one, or two non-coms. It's actually an effective strategy when you kill thousands. That was proven during WW2 with the British night bombing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    How is killing the enemy illegal?
    Here's a place to start:

    International Law and War Crimes

    Do a web search

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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    This isn't necessarily "warfare." It's counter terrorist operations when we are talking about taking out specific Al Qaeda or Taliban operatives.
    For whatever reason, the self-described 'forward thinking' left seems rooted in the 19th century when it comes to modern warfare.

    Given that these 19th century rules and principles were created within the context of war fought between states, they do not and can not effectively be applied a state v non-state conflict.

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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The "enemy" is defined by however the government wants it to be.

    The fact that people don't have a say so in who the enemy should be without any oversight would scare the hell out of even me.
    Can you provide a modern example of a nation's people having a say as to 'who is the enemy'?

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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    This is just one plan. Do you excuse our government for doing things that are not legal, and by that I mean ANYTHING the U.S. has done? And if so, how is that any different than Iran, or NK?

    Or do you think that ANYTHING the U.S. does is good. Just curious.
    I believe that covert operations are part of the CIA mission.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I believe that covert operations are part of the CIA mission.
    Which, of course, are illegal and immoral.

    The US should never use covert operations, as it dirties us and takes us off the moral high ground. When we do so, we sink to the level of our enemies.


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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    For whatever reason, the self-described 'forward thinking' left seems rooted in the 19th century when it comes to modern warfare.
    Well, I think you need to step back and take a look at what Bush and his administration put together, they took a deliberately "un-forward" thinking approach to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Poor military strategy is a hallmark of the right at this point if you want to go down this road.
    Given that these 19th century rules and principles were created within the context of war fought between states, they do not and can not effectively be applied a state v non-state conflict.
    Again, the right under Bush would be the number one perpetrators of this sin. Of course it looks like the left is doing their level best to play catch up at this point.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Well, I think you need to step back and take a look at what Bush and his administration put together, they took a deliberately "un-forward" thinking approach to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Poor military strategy is a hallmark of the right at this point if you want to go down this road.

    Again, the right under Bush would be the number one perpetrators of this sin. Of course it looks like the left is doing their level best to play catch up at this point.
    Well, OK, but.... I am speaking of the broader issue of the war against terrorists. Iraq and Afghanistan are part of that, but not really the part I am discussing.

    I thought the context was clear from the post I responded to...

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    Re: Will the Liar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Which, of course, are illegal and immoral.

    The US should never use covert operations, as it dirties us and takes us off the moral high ground. When we do so, we sink to the level of our enemies.

    The PC version of war is called Outcome-based Conflict.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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