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Thread: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think it is more the principle of the thing that I find troubling. Moral equivalency is something that people need to examine, skeptically, and reject, as a philosophy. Some morality is simply better than other morality. The UK used to understand this, and that appears to have been lost to a need to appear "tolerant."

    Tolerance is overrated, in my estimation. There are some things that shouldn't be tolerated by civilized people.
    You must attempt to look at this from the UK point of view as well. They had a weapons agreement contract to sell Israel military weapons for defensive and war purposes, with explicit prohibition on internal usage. They recieved reports that during the last Gaza conflict, the Israeli navy utilized the said weapons in subduing the Palenstinans. Which, would actually be a violation of the agreement.

    So, to me the questions are did Israel actually use the weapons on the Palestinians, and will the breaking of the agreement hurt the Isralei military. The first question, I have no idea. On the second, I do not think it will bother them in the least. Nor do I think this will hurt Israel's image in anyway.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Correct.
    And very much unlike the Spanish, who simply took everything from the South-American colonies and became one of the all-time richest nations thanks to those colonies' treasures.
    I mean, one can legitimately question the good of colonialization and imperialism, but all the major world powers were doing it at the time that the Brits were, and few left the stable legacy that the british empire did.

    And yet, you rarely hear the Red Daves of the world throw stones at the French and Germans who caused most of the 20th Century's instability through their empire-building during the 19th Century.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think it is more the principle of the thing that I find troubling. Moral equivalency is something that people need to examine, skeptically, and reject, as a philosophy. Some morality is simply better than other morality. The UK used to understand this, and that appears to have been lost to a need to appear "tolerant."

    Tolerance is overrated, in my estimation. There are some things that shouldn't be tolerated by civilized people.
    There is tolerance and there is cultural self-hatred, and often times the latter masquerades as the former.

    Until people learn to use a little reason in regards to WHAT they tolerate, they aren't really fostering tolerance at all, and make that double for those who have been hoodwinked into viewing their own western liberal culture as somehow inferior to those stuck in the stone age.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    There is tolerance and there is cultural self-hatred, and often times the latter masquerades as the former.

    Until people learn to use a little reason in regards to WHAT they tolerate, they aren't really fostering tolerance at all, and make that double for those who have been hoodwinked into viewing their own western liberal culture as somehow inferior to those stuck in the stone age.
    Yes, I totally agree. We can think that Chomsky's and Ward Churchills of today for our blind self-hatred, which you can see manifested in Red Dave's posts.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I mean, one can legitimately question the good of colonialization and imperialism, but all the major world powers were doing it at the time that the Brits were, and few left the stable legacy that the british empire did.

    And yet, you rarely hear the Red Daves of the world throw stones at the French and Germans who caused most of the 20th Century's instability through their empire-building during the 19th Century.
    I belive I criticised the French war in Algeria within the last two weeks and ive frequently criticised them over Rwanda. Still ild agree the we were more willing to decolonise then many other powers and im quite proud of what we achieved during WW2 [though operation ajax demonstrates how we quickly returned to our old ways in some respects] but our brutal repression against the Indians, the Irish and the Boers pretty much ammounted to genocide in some cases, and their only crime was wanting to run their own countries.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Yes, I totally agree. We can think that Chomsky's and Ward Churchills of today for our blind self-hatred, which you can see manifested in Red Dave's posts.
    Thats pretty inaccurate. Ive defended our role in Iraq Afganistan Northern Ireland and Falklands. I cant see the Noam Chomskys of this world doing that

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I belive I criticised the French war in Algeria within the last two weeks and ive frequently criticised them over Rwanda. Still ild agree the we were more willing to decolonise then many other powers and im quite proud of what we achieved during WW2 [though operation ajax demonstrates how we quickly returned to our old ways in some respects] but our brutal repression against the Indians, the Irish and the Boers pretty much ammounted to genocide in some cases, and their only crime was wanting to run their own countries.
    This is going to sound harsh, but sh*t happens, man. You take your history, you learn from it, and move on. Focusing only on the negatives done by the British empire ignores many of the brilliant positive aspects of that era.

    The fact of the matter is that the Brits, on the great scheme of things, were no less repressive, and considerably more civilized, than most of their peers in that era.

    Re: the Indians and the Irish, they're damn lucky they weren't colonized by someone else. British dealings with these nations weren't always civilized, but they beat the hell out of their peers.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 07-13-09 at 11:32 AM.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Yes, I totally agree. We can think that Chomsky's and Ward Churchills of today for our blind self-hatred, which you can see manifested in Red Dave's posts.
    If people never spokeout against the wrongs of their countries, or the courses taken that they felt were wrong, there would not be democracy. I do not see Red Dave's comments, nor Chomsky's for that matter, as self hatred. But rather as the warning beacons of society. They look at the actions of their home nation, and as patriots, criticize what they see wrong. That is not cultural loathing, it is fighting for what one believes within the sphere of democracy.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    If people never spokeout against the wrongs of their countries, or the courses taken that they felt were wrong, there would not be democracy. I do not see Red Dave's comments, nor Chomsky's for that matter, as self hatred. But rather as the warning beacons of society. They look at the actions of their home nation, and as patriots, criticize what they see wrong. That is not cultural loathing, it is fighting for what one believes within the sphere of democracy.
    I am perfectly fine with criticizing one's government. That's our jobs, as responsible citizens. But, criticizing without recognition of the cultural sphere in which actions occurred is simply stupid. And, while the Brits have committed their share of negative acts, in the vast scheme of world history, they still remain a shining light. Failure to recognize this is strange.

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    Re: UK cuts Israel weapons contracts

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    This is going to sound harsh, but sh*t happens, man. You take your history, you learn from it, and move on. Focusing only on the negatives done by the British empire ignores many of the brilliant positive aspects of that era.

    The fact of the matter is that the Brits, on the great scheme of things, were no less repressive, and considerably more civilized, than most of their peers in that era.

    Re: the Indians and the Irish, they're damn lucky they weren't colonized by someone else. British dealings with these nations weren't always civilized, but they beat the hell out of their peers.
    The French and Spanish colonized parts of America, and that turned out alright. Besides, the Native Americans prefered the French over the English. So to make Britain sound like the lesser of evils is false. After all, Britain instilled the caste system in India, and that has been a brutal thing.

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