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Thread: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Well, I'm confused now. When you said, "Question I have: Do people really want to know what the CIA is doing at all times?", did "people" refer to the American citizen or to congress?
    If you distinguish between the two, you need a refresher civics course.

    Congress are the elected representatives of the people. Nothing they do should be conducted in secret. What Congress knows, the whole of America should know. If the whole of America should not know, Congress should not know.

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, this thread was on the issue of whether congress was properly notified of the CIA's actions, not you or me.
    And you and I have no clue whether Congress was actually properly notified or whether Nancy is just jerking you around because she wants to stay speaker.

    When there are only 9 people who know the truth, it's easy to stretch it.

    edit: Do you think all 535 members of Congress should be told all the details of those 100,000 crimes? Or do you think that it makes more sense for the CIA to limit the details and limit who in Congress gets to hear it?
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 07-12-09 at 02:55 PM.
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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If you distinguish between the two, you need a refresher civics course.

    Congress are the elected representatives of the people. Nothing they do should be conducted in secret. What Congress knows, the whole of America should know. If the whole of America should not know, Congress should not know.
    Well, that's not exactly how I feel, but that's clearly how you feel, which means that government, when it claims to do something for your security/well being, doesn't require oversight. This makes your label of Dear Leader for Obama rather inconsistent.

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And you and I have no clue whether Congress was actually properly notified or whether Nancy is just jerking you around because she wants to stay speaker.
    I know, that's why I'm not actually interested in playing he said/she said. I'm more interested in the personal philosophy of how transparent, and in what manner, government and government agencies should be. Personally, I don't think it's realistic for we, the unwashed masses, to know certain things like ongoing cia operations. However, we do elect congress, whom we instill a certain amount of our trust, to oversee such things so they don't operate wholly contrary to our principles (and to our personal civil liberties). If our own representatives are not allowed in on the joke, as it were, then we have to stop so much as pretending that we live in a republic.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    edit: Do you think all 535 members of Congress should be told all the details of those 100,000 crimes? Or do you think that it makes more sense for the CIA to limit the details and limit who in Congress gets to hear it?
    Do you have a particular reason for why all 535 members shouldn't? Or, perhaps a better questions might be, what qualifications does a congressman need in order to be on an oversight committees? Does it come to down to seniority, political jockeying, or legitimate training?

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Do you have a particular reason for why all 535 members shouldn't? Or, perhaps a better questions might be, what qualifications does a congressman need in order to be on an oversight committees? Does it come to down to seniority, political jockeying, or legitimate training?

    It has nothing to do with training. Look at the members who are on the committee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It has nothing to do with training. Look at the members who are on the committee.
    That's my point, actually. If who gets on various congressional oversight committees comes down to seniority, political jockeying and whose party is in power at the time, and not so much about individual qualifications, then what does it matter whether nine people get to know what the CIA is doing versus all 535 members?

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Well, that's not exactly how I feel, but that's clearly how you feel, which means that government, when it claims to do something for your security/well being, doesn't require oversight. This makes your label of Dear Leader for Obama rather inconsistent.
    Ok, so you need a refresher course in reading comprehension as well as civics.

    I despise government secrecy. I do not want any government secrets at all.

    That being said, I recognize the value of spies and espionage in maintaining the strength and security of the United States. One must know who the enemy is, and what his strategy is, if he is to defeat his enemy. I do not like spies, but I acknowledge the need for spies.

    Thus the need to split the baby. Spies need secrecy, so give them their secrecy, but put it beyond the pale, outside the purview of Congress, outside the jurisdiction of US law, where secrecy may be maintained without corroding US law.

    Dear Leader inverts that principle. His administration is less secretive about the spies and more secretive about his domestic activities. He publishes the doings of the CIA but not the details of meetings with big pharmaceutical firms. Those doings of US government which fall within the jurisdiction of US law he seeks to conceal, and those doings of US government which fall outside the jurisdiction of US law he seeks to publish. Not only is that morally bankrupt and criminally suspect, it is stupid and suicidal.

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Ok, so you need a refresher course in reading comprehension as
    Never mind.

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Folks you all do understand that Speaker Pelosi has been part of the Gang of Eight for at least 4 Years and she claims that she was never brief is a crock of BS. Just because she didn't care to show up to any of the Briefings isn't the CIA fault.

    If you all like I can list all who have been on the Gang of Eight since 1999.

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    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I know, that's why I'm not actually interested in playing he said/she said. I'm more interested in the personal philosophy of how transparent, and in what manner, government and government agencies should be. Personally, I don't think it's realistic for we, the unwashed masses, to know certain things like ongoing cia operations. However, we do elect congress, whom we instill a certain amount of our trust, to oversee such things so they don't operate wholly contrary to our principles (and to our personal civil liberties). If our own representatives are not allowed in on the joke, as it were, then we have to stop so much as pretending that we live in a republic.
    Are you actually arguing that Congress is collectively good at keeping secrets? Seriously?

    Do you have a particular reason for why all 535 members shouldn't?
    Because it's harder to keep a secret when it's known by 535 than it is when it's known by 8?

    Or, perhaps a better questions might be, what qualifications does a congressman need in order to be on an oversight committees? Does it come to down to seniority, political jockeying, or legitimate training?
    There are no particular necessary qualifications. The goal is not to inform the best and the brightest among Congress, even if we could figure out who that is. The goal is to inform some, so that they know what is happening while simultaneously reducing the risk of the information getting released.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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