Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 31

Thread: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

  1. #11
    Sage
    Renae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Antonio Texas
    Last Seen
    10-23-17 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    38,972
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Are you really that comfortable with any government agency having no oversight, even if it's in the name of your safety? What if Obama decided to tell us nothing at all...ever...under the guise of national security? What would you think of that?


    The real question is, do we want to institute a new layer of oversight on the CIA because Nancy Pelosi backed herself into a corner?

    I think that's that part soooo many are missing.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  2. #12
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,970

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The real question is, do we want to institute a new layer of oversight on the CIA because Nancy Pelosi backed herself into a corner?

    I think that's that part soooo many are missing.
    That doesn't answer my question.

  3. #13
    Sage
    Renae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Antonio Texas
    Last Seen
    10-23-17 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    38,972
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That doesn't answer my question.
    That's because your question was flawed in it's premise. The CIA HAS oversight. Just because that oversight had one person lying doesn't mean it needs another layer of oversight.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  4. #14
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,970

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    That's because your question was flawed in it's premise. The CIA HAS oversight. Just because that oversight had one person lying doesn't mean it needs another layer of oversight.
    My premise was "flawed" if you didn't first read what I was responding to.

  5. #15
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 08:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Are you really that comfortable with any government agency having no oversight, even if it's in the name of your safety? What if Obama decided to tell us nothing at all...ever...under the guise of national security? What would you think of that? Your philosophy just seems an odd one, what with your repeated portrayal of Obama as "Dear Leader," a label that insinuates one whom one trusts so much as to give him complete leeway to do as he pleases as long as he does it for our good.
    Me personally? I don't much care for spies or for spying. Ideally, I'd want to do without the CIA and spies. I prefer battles be fought openly, among warriors, with all the usual bits of blood and gore and associated remonstrations of honor and courage.

    However, even Sun Tzu acknowledged the value of spies. When your aim is to defeat the enemy's strategy, it is helpful to know what that strategy is. That requires intelligence gathering. That requires spying. That requires spies.

    The CIA is a necessary evil. Spies are something we must have to know the designs of other nations.

    It is that paradox that begs the question: how to reconcile secrecy and spying with the rule of law? It is not an easy question, for while spies must operate in the shadows, governments must not--at least, not if they are to be held to account by the electorate.

    The balance is found by recognizing the limits of law. US law is absolutely binding in US sovereign territory. US law is of no consequence anywhere else. Not only are foreign nations not beholden to US law, US citizens are not beholden to US law when not on US soil. The limit of the law is the sovereignty of nations.

    If the duties of the CIA are kept beyond the scope of US law, there is no reason for them to appear before Congress, whose scope is limited to US law.

    Thus, my preference is to give the CIA a discrete and limited mission--gathering information about the movements and intentions of foreign forces, including terrorist organizations--and give them carte blanche for that mission. How they gather that information is entirely up to them: no oversight, no laws, no testimony before Congress. The only ground rules: 1) their reports had better be accurate; 2) their people had better not get caught. Like the line from the old Mission:Impossible show: "if any of your team are killed or captured, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions."

  6. #16
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Are you really that comfortable with any government agency having no oversight, even if it's in the name of your safety? What if Obama decided to tell us nothing at all...ever...under the guise of national security? What would you think of that? Your philosophy just seems an odd one, what with your repeated portrayal of Obama as "Dear Leader," a label that insinuates one whom one trusts so much as to give him complete leeway to do as he pleases as long as he does it for our good.
    While that's obviously an extreme, I'm completely comfortable with not knowing much about what the CIA does.

    Here's a handy little fact - the CIA commits approximately 100,000 major crimes per year while they are overseas. All of Congress knows this. Do you think they should be forced to report on those things to everyone and send their operatives back here to face trial, or do you think that that's sort of the point of the CIA?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  7. #17
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,970

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Me personally? I don't much care for spies or for spying. Ideally, I'd want to do without the CIA and spies. I prefer battles be fought openly, among warriors, with all the usual bits of blood and gore and associated remonstrations of honor and courage.

    However, even Sun Tzu acknowledged the value of spies. When your aim is to defeat the enemy's strategy, it is helpful to know what that strategy is. That requires intelligence gathering. That requires spying. That requires spies.

    The CIA is a necessary evil. Spies are something we must have to know the designs of other nations.

    It is that paradox that begs the question: how to reconcile secrecy and spying with the rule of law? It is not an easy question, for while spies must operate in the shadows, governments must not--at least, not if they are to be held to account by the electorate.

    The balance is found by recognizing the limits of law. US law is absolutely binding in US sovereign territory. US law is of no consequence anywhere else. Not only are foreign nations not beholden to US law, US citizens are not beholden to US law when not on US soil. The limit of the law is the sovereignty of nations.

    If the duties of the CIA are kept beyond the scope of US law, there is no reason for them to appear before Congress, whose scope is limited to US law.

    Thus, my preference is to give the CIA a discrete and limited mission--gathering information about the movements and intentions of foreign forces, including terrorist organizations--and give them carte blanche for that mission. How they gather that information is entirely up to them: no oversight, no laws, no testimony before Congress. The only ground rules: 1) their reports had better be accurate; 2) their people had better not get caught. Like the line from the old Mission:Impossible show: "if any of your team are killed or captured, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions."
    Well, I'm confused now. When you said, "Question I have: Do people really want to know what the CIA is doing at all times?", did "people" refer to the American citizen or to congress?

  8. #18
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    What this whole thing really comes down to is that it's a fight between a bunch of people who are frantically looking for a political advantage. Because many of them know that the total truth will never come out, they're free to exaggerate or outright lie about some things without worry of being caught. Beyond that, many of the people talking about this **** have absolutely no idea what happened to other people.

    If Nancy Pelosi says she never heard something and neither did a lower ranked Dem on the Intelligence committee, then that lower ranked dem is going to back up Nancy despite the fact that he has no idea whether she's telling the truth or not.

    The idea that we're ever going to "get to the bottom of this" is just crazy. If we actually did, it would be a sad day for the country.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #19
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    34,970

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    While that's obviously an extreme, I'm completely comfortable with not knowing much about what the CIA does.

    Here's a handy little fact - the CIA commits approximately 100,000 major crimes per year while they are overseas. All of Congress knows this. Do you think they should be forced to report on those things to everyone and send their operatives back here to face trial, or do you think that that's sort of the point of the CIA?
    Unless I'm mistaken, this thread was on the issue of whether congress was properly notified of the CIA's actions, not you or me.

  10. #20
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:49 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,266

    Re: Hayden Says He Informed Congress of Surveillance Program

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Are you really that comfortable with any government agency having no oversight, even if it's in the name of your safety? What if Obama decided to tell us nothing at all...ever...under the guise of national security? What would you think of that? Your philosophy just seems an odd one, what with your repeated portrayal of Obama as "Dear Leader," a label that insinuates one whom one trusts so much as to give him complete leeway to do as he pleases as long as he does it for our good.

    I'm not comfortable with government agencies having no oversight. I'm even less comfortable with the overseers using that privilege to cover their own political asses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •