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Thread: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Fine.

    Then we install guillotines and whack their heads off, and put it on cable for all to see, if that's what's needed.

    I've no objections.

    Or a wood chipper or a steam roller or we can do the Cask of Amontillado thing from Poe.

    Clearly what's needed are more executions, with varied methods in the various states, to determine which methods produced the greatest deterrent effect in a scientific manner.

    I don't really care how Jose Avilla is executed, so long as he's eradicated soon.
    Is there any sound basis that can be derived from rational deterrence theory for claiming that utilization of such methods actually functions as a rational deterrent, to put it plainly? Or is this simply a crude little sentiment you enjoy expressing because of mere bloodlust not accompanied by reason? And more than that, while you may not have objections, those with an interest in upholding the Eighth Amendment might.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think the problem is inconsistency of the punishments. Sometimes you'll get the death penalty and sometimes you get life.
    How and why would that even have any relevance to the fact that electrocution appears to function as a deterrent while other methods do not?, or to the overall effect of capital punishment as a whole?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Then there is the fact they are granted a lot of appeals. If someone was convicted with solid evidence then there is no reason we should wait 10 years after that person was convicted for his sentence to take place.
    That would likely result in an increase in the number of unjust executions of innocent victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yep.

    Common sense.

    And people like you are the cause of why common sense isn't so common anymore.
    Nope. And I don't believe there's much basis for your "common sense" either than anecdotal experiences. But we're not interested in hearing "my daddy paddled me right quick when I sinned and I turned out all right"; analysis of large data sets is necessary.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Actually, most people would agree that I'm on the more rigid end when it comes to this in that I can be uptight as hell in demanding valid empirical research in these instances. The reason for that is because some seem to believe that their personal experiences or anectodal reports are a sufficient basis for policy formation. But the vast heterogeneity of the spectrum of human experiences renders any such arrangement useless, which is why I consider statistical analysis of large data sets necessary. The usage of corporal punishment as a generally sound parenting practice was advocated, and I therefore needed such analysis rather than anecodtal speculation to form a sound opinion.
    Ah, I see. That's actually fair enough, and I guess having evidence (crap or oherwise) makes it all more interesting anyway.
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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No.

    One can't argue that having the death penalty deters crimes invoking that sentence.

    Carrying out the sentence on a reliable basis swiftly.

    That's the deterrent.

    When we get back to executing murders on an assembly line basis, we'll soon see a decline in the number of crimes requireing execution being committed.
    But couldn't you argue that reliability is LESS likely to be obtained if the speed in which executions are carried out is increased? I mean, killing a human being isn't as clear-cut as smuggling drugs into a country is (and even THAT'S sometimes complicated ), so if capital punishment is only to be used as punishment for first-degree murder, surely it takes time to make sure? I agree that the appeal system is a bit out of hand though, although there are still some cases (one happened in New Zealand a month ago with a guy sentenced to 25 years or something, acquitted after 10 years) where new evidence can be discovered that might unbalance a previously solid guilty conviction.

    I guess the question is: Is it worth the risk of killing a few people who might not don't deserve it, in order to give the punishment an actual purpose? You could easily argue that yes, it is. (Although I'd disagree, but meh )
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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Nope. And I don't believe there's much basis for your "common sense" either than anecdotal experiences. But we're not interested in hearing "my daddy paddled me right quick when I sinned and I turned out all right"; analysis of large data sets is necessary.
    Common sense.

    Apparently unless there is some 'research' put into anything you discuss it doesn't mean anything to Agnapostate, unless in the case of George Bush conspiracy theories.

    Listen buddy, if a kid goes through life never being disciplined when he does something wrong, he is going to grow up thinking he can do just about whatever the hell he wants to. Parents that encourage this attitude are a part of the problem.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Is there any sound basis that can be derived from rational deterrence theory for claiming that utilization of such methods actually functions as a rational deterrent, to put it plainly?
    You mean besides the fact that if all kidnapper/murderer were executed in a reasonable period of time after conviction eventually all future kidnapper/murderers would be aware of the penalty and take that into consideration before acting?

    No, of course not. Criminals never think of the consequences of what they do, they're just mindless crime machines.

    You can pretend deterrence doesn't work if you want. I won't stop you. I bet you can even find a huge library of references from pointy-headed bleeding hearts that have faked up studies to say just that. But in the real world, it deterrent penalties deter, and do so effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Or is this simply a crude little sentiment you enjoy expressing because of mere bloodlust not accompanied by reason?
    No, it's awful nasty bloodlust accompanied by a coldly reasoning pitiless calculating machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    And more than that, while you may not have objections, those with an interest in upholding the Eighth Amendment might.
    Executions using guillotines are not cruel by any coldly heartless reasoning, and hence conform to the Eighth Amendment.

    Executions done often enough are not "unusual", and hence conform to the Eighth Amendment.

    Since capital punishment was in vogue when the Constitution and Bill of Rights was ratified, cold reasoning states that the fact of execution and the means employed today are not and cannot be in violation of the Eighth Amendment, since they tended to hang people by the neck back then until they were dead.

    Bleeding hearts cannot use the Eighth Amendment in support of their cause, the original intent of the Eighth Amendment denies their case completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    How and why would that even have any relevance to the fact that electrocution appears to function as a deterrent while other methods do not?
    As already stated, let's do some experiments. We'll execute a bunch of people with the pretty little needles, and see how that works on the crime rate, then electrocute a good handful, see how that works, then guillotine a bunch, see how that works, and we'll hang a whole bunch.

    And if we do it right, death row will be empty.

    Which is the goal of any sane person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That would likely result in an increase in the number of unjust executions of innocent victims.
    Guess what? I'm not discussing details of cases here. Can't you please bleed your heart on someone else? The assumption is that CONVICTED murders are justly convicted. Jose Avilla should be executed. That Mumia thug should have been executed. Scott Peterson should be executed. There's a huge list of critters on death row for whom absolutely zero doubt exists to their guilt. There may be one or two possibly wrongly sentenced, but it's really not likely, given the nature of modern bleeding heart law. So kill them.

    DNA should be the gold standard of capital punishment. If the DNA says they did it, pull the switch on them. If other evidence, like that against the Mumia thug, makes their guilt certain, drop the pill in the acid and get it over with.

    Why waste pity on the guilty? We as a nation have better things to do.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Common sense.

    Apparently unless there is some 'research' put into anything you discuss it doesn't mean anything to Agnapostate, unless in the case of George Bush conspiracy theories.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Listen buddy, if a kid goes through life never being disciplined when he does something wrong, he is going to grow up thinking he can do just about whatever the hell he wants to. Parents that encourage this attitude are a part of the problem.
    And I can also claim that reward and punishment are responsible for the creation of personality deficiencies, as Alfie Kohn does, for example. Without sound evidence to prove what I say, you'd have no reason to believe me...though I don't doubt that you wouldn't believe me even if I had it.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Common sense.

    Apparently unless there is some 'research' put into anything you discuss it doesn't mean anything to Agnapostate, unless in the case of George Bush conspiracy theories.

    Listen buddy, if a kid goes through life never being disciplined when he does something wrong, he is going to grow up thinking he can do just about whatever the hell he wants to. Parents that encourage this attitude are a part of the problem.
    Paraphrases from Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein:

    INSTRUCTOR: How do you housebreak a puppy?

    JUAN: Why, when he makes a mess you rub his nose in it to let him know what he's done wrong, you swat him with a rolled up paper to let him know he's being punished, and then you put him in the middle of some newspapers to let him know where he should be doing it.

    INSTRUCTOR: What if I told you someone had a puppy and allowed it to make any mess it wanted to wherever it felt like it, and did nothing to instruct the puppy in when and where to go, and then noticed one day that the puppy was now a full grown dog and decided that he couldn't have the dog doing that and shot him?

    JUAN: Why, that's the craziest way of raising a dog I ever heard of! You must not know much about dogs.

    INSTRUCTOR: I know a lot about dogs, I'm raising three now. And you're right, it's a crazy way to raise dogs. I'm doing it the way you said. But during the Crazy Times, thats how people raised their children.

    =====

    We're still in the Crazy Times.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post

    We're still in the Crazy Times.
    I agree, we are in the Crazy Times.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Glowfish View Post
    But couldn't you argue that reliability is LESS likely to be obtained if the speed in which executions are carried out is increased?
    No, I couldn't, because I'm honest.

    Other people can try.

    Here's a clue for you: the trial is what determines innocence or guilt, not the appeals process. The appeals process is to check that procedural rules were followed correctly, not re-verify the evidence. Jose Avilla's sperm, verified by DNA, was found inside the body of the five year old girl he kidnapped, raped, and murdered, and her DNA was found in his car. His guilt is not in question.

    Since his guilt is foregone, there's no real reason to be wasting time quibbling over comma's and i-dots in his trial. Behead him, or put him through a giant egg-slicer, or maybe try something new in the way of a pnuematic Slap-Chop, or maybe even a "Graty", but he should have been executed years ago. The little girl who's life he stole would have been ten by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    I mean, killing a human being isn't as clear-cut as smuggling drugs into a country is
    Sometimes it is. It often is, in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    I guess the question is: Is it worth the risk of killing a few people who might not don't deserve it, in order to give the punishment an actual purpose? You could easily argue that yes, it is. (Although I'd disagree, but meh )
    Yeah, ignore the specific cases I mentioned, they don't support what you say.

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    Re: Oklahoma executes man who murdered two campers

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, I couldn't, because I'm honest.

    Other people can try.

    Here's a clue for you: the trial is what determines innocence or guilt, not the appeals process. The appeals process is to check that procedural rules were followed correctly, not re-verify the evidence. Jose Avilla's sperm, verified by DNA, was found inside the body of the five year old girl he kidnapped, raped, and murdered, and her DNA was found in his car. His guilt is not in question.

    Since his guilt is foregone, there's no real reason to be wasting time quibbling over comma's and i-dots in his trial. Behead him, or put him through a giant egg-slicer, or maybe try something new in the way of a pnuematic Slap-Chop, or maybe even a "Graty", but he should have been executed years ago. The little girl who's life he stole would have been ten by now.



    Sometimes it is. It often is, in fact.



    Yeah, ignore the specific cases I mentioned, they don't support what you say.
    Here's a clue for you, jackass: there's no point in patronizing people who are already aware that they know less than the majority of the people here. I'm absolutely, in every conceivable way, entitled to think that killing other human beings is wrong, no matter what the reason, but that doesn't mean that I do, and I don't deny you your right to think otherwise. It doesn't stop me from wanting to see what you think, but just because you've decided you're right doesn't mean I have to change my mind.

    You're right about the killing people being clear-cut thing though. What I meant was more like, the diffence between 1st degree, crimes of passion, insanity, manslaughter etc. With drugs, I guess its more like 1) you smuggled drugs and 2) you didn't, so I guess it's a bit easier to manage. You gotta admit, it definitely works in those countries .
    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me."
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