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Thread: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    Hey I never said it was a good idea, I think its retarded, but the idea that the whole minimum wage should be thrown out is ludicrous...
    If the minimum wage is good though, then why does it have to constantly be increased? And what numbers make 7.50/hr. better than 5.75/hr. considering that costs will increase accordingly? Fair market labor value is preferable to a minimum wage any day, I haven't seen a valid counter argument to that.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    I'm sorry, but I've been hearing a bunch of bull**** from faux "free market" people about the pitfalls of a minimum wage for as long as I've been interested in economics and history does not bear that argument out.
    This is one case where it's actually true. Isn't a single case of an increase in the minimum wage being linked to an increase in the standard of living-- all it does is leave fewer jobs available for the people it's supposed to help, and raise the prices of goods and services for everyone.

    Money's not real. It's an abstract measurement, relative only to itself, and thus dictating the price of goods and services in terms of money is only effective at changing the value of money. Labor is a commodity, worth no more and no less than whatever someone is willing to pay for it... and price fixing is no more effective for labor than it is for any other good or service.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Not to mention the notion of a state, let alone a federal, "minimum wage" on the basis that many liberals try to talk about it...needing to make sure people can have a "liveable wage" is laughable in and of itself.

    I've lived in three different locations in my state...Southwest (Roanoke) Virginia, Hampton Roads (Newport News), and Northern (Herndon) Virginia.

    I could live as a single person relatively comfortably (though not really any luxuries) in Roanoke for $24,000...would be a little hard pressed in Newport News on that...and would be down right impossible to live on my own on that in Northern Virginia.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Actually I wrote about minimum wage on my blog, here's a little excerpt. Basically sums up most of my opinion on the matter....

    The case for a Minimum Wage is obvious, but nonetheless in need of being restated. Many economically authoritarian elements within the country see the issue not as of merely a 'minimum' in the sense of absolute bottom threshold but more as a "Living Wage." [1] Namely, If the minimum wage went up at least to $7, or better still to near $10 an hour, millions would be lifted out of poverty - by last estimates. Those estimates, I hasten to assure people skeptical of the so-called 'economists' these days, are not exactly exact and have their share of criticism.

    The other benefit, say supporters, is that it is inherently racist to not support it. That indeed a minimum wage can bring up minorities from poverty, as long as the minimum wage is high enough. [3] There is wide consensus, even among some conservatives, that a Minimum Wage helps out certain minorities - mostly excluding affluent Asian American populations - to get a leg up in life. While there is no direct correlation between race (size of minorities within a state) and adoption of minimum wage laws. [2] One must keep in mind the persistence of the belief - on both sides of the aisle - indicate that such a statistic doesn't tell the full story, or at the very least shows that Minimum Wage opponents are not as divided by race as first thought.

    Speaking of which, the opposition does seem to be large and well organized. Mainly concering themselves with an attack through the plain technical economics aspects - not the race preference of this (alleged) silver bullet for poverty. The Independent Institute reports that In an American Economic Review poll, 90 percent of economists agreed that minimum wage laws increase unemployment among low-skilled workers." [6] While initially I was skeptical of such a number, the sheer amount of articles and economic institutes dedicated to looking at various topics - like Minimum Wage - who disliked it made such a figure low; if anything. The Ludwig von Mises Institute (Located in Mobile, Alabama) says that "Tragically, a higher minimum wage and workplace-safety regulations are likely to exacerbate rather than mitigate social inequalities." [5] While The Heritage Foundation declares that "it doesn’t just take away current jobs, but also future job opportunities." Indeed, any effort to find any sort of true - socially liberal - economic reports on the subject mostly makes the case 'it doesn't affect enough workers to hurt the economy,' [7] which to me: sounds like acceptance that a Minimum Wage hurts economic growth but not enough to change anything (hopefully). Though even ACORN (famous for last year's Registration of The Year Award after they got Mickey Mouse registered for the Democrat Party) has made the case that higher minimum wages prevents them from hiring more people. [8]

    Economic critics also make the case that minimum wage doesn't actually improve employment, overall. Indeed, there is ample evidence that minimum wage laws hurt employment. [9] [10] For indeed, of the top 15 employment rates only one (Iowa, at #5) has a minimum wage higher then Federally mandated, while four have one lower (Wyoming #3, New Mexico #7, Kansas #12, Arkansas #13). The majority do have one at par with the Federal level, but that is constantly attacked as to low while most who have a higher minimum wage all but have a monopoly on high unemployment (7 out the 10 highest unemployment rates have higher minimum wages).

    The case is also made by the Austrian School redoubt, no less, called the Ludwig von Mises Institute [4] (along with a collection of similarly minded institutions, such as the Libertarian Party of America) that a minimum wage is actually somewhat racist. In short, that it is hard for a (Mises.org's example) reformed black convict (with a special emphasis on the high incarceration levels of African-American males) who is clean, looking for a little work while he picks his life back up to compete against some rich, white, frat boy. Because, to be perfectly blunt, if the convict can't undercut the lazy frat boy's wage then he won't be hired.


    [1] A Moral Minimum Wage

    [2] (Page 10 of 24) - Race and Policy Responsiveness in an Era of SubtleRetrenchment authored by Beamer, Glenn.

    [3] Higher Minimum Wage Can Lift Minorities

    [4] http://mises.org/story/3261

    [5] Minimum Wage—Maximum Nonsense: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

    [6] Minimizing Economic Opportunity by Raising the Minimum Wage

    [7] The Economic Effects of the Minimum Wage

    [8] RealClearPolitics - Commentary - Liberal Doublespeak on the Minimum Wage by Bruce Bartlett

    [9] Unemployment Rates for States

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Teenagers are already having problems finding summer jobs, this will make it worse.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not to mention the notion of a state, let alone a federal, "minimum wage" on the basis that many liberals try to talk about it...needing to make sure people can have a "liveable wage" is laughable in and of itself.

    I've lived in three different locations in my state...Southwest (Roanoke) Virginia, Hampton Roads (Newport News), and Northern (Herndon) Virginia.

    I could live as a single person relatively comfortably (though not really any luxuries) in Roanoke for $24,000...would be a little hard pressed in Newport News on that...and would be down right impossible to live on my own on that in Northern Virginia.
    Exactly, I raise a family of 4 on a similar wage.

    My coworkers don't understand how, yet they are the first ones to go running to the store on break to buy lottery tickets.

    If your determined enough you can survive on most offered wages.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Fair market labor value is preferable to a minimum wage any day, I haven't seen a valid counter argument to that.
    Heh. There has never been, since the advent of industrialization, such an animal as a "fair market" for labor. You can't unleash a nearly unlimited supply of any commodity-- in this case, in the form of machine labor-- and expect that commodity to retain any value at all.

    Labor market's like the agricultural market. Only reason anyone can make a living selling their own labor is an intricate web of governmental and industrial schemes to waste, destroy, and otherwise remove as much labor from the market as possible.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Plus, and this is my issue with some people talk about the minimum wage...

    I heard someone say once that "they can't raise a family on $5.45 a day"

    Well, you're not SUPPOSED to be raising a family on that. No one forces you to raise a family, this is your choice by the actions you make. In essense, I hate to say it, that is a luxury. Society shouldn't make it so that business MUST pay you enough to support however many kids you want to pump out.

    If, IF I was to ever fully support a "livable wage" type program it'd need to be fluxurated based on the cost of living in a given area and based ONLY on what that INDIVIDUAL person needs for the most bare bone essential living. If you're so unskilled, so unmotivated, and so uneducated that you can not even get a job that pays greater than minimum wage then perhaps you shouldn't be having multiple children to attempt to take care of.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Plus, and this is my issue with some people talk about the minimum wage...

    I heard someone say once that "they can't raise a family on $5.45 a day"

    Well, you're not SUPPOSED to be raising a family on that. No one forces you to raise a family, this is your choice by the actions you make. In essense, I hate to say it, that is a luxury. Society shouldn't make it so that business MUST pay you enough to support however many kids you want to pump out.

    If, IF I was to ever fully support a "livable wage" type program it'd need to be fluxurated based on the cost of living in a given area and based ONLY on what that INDIVIDUAL person needs for the most bare bone essential living. If you're so unskilled, so unmotivated, and so uneducated that you can not even get a job that pays greater than minimum wage then perhaps you shouldn't be having multiple children to attempt to take care of.
    Bare bones includes a 50" wide screen.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Heh. There has never been, since the advent of industrialization, such an animal as a "fair market" for labor. You can't unleash a nearly unlimited supply of any commodity-- in this case, in the form of machine labor-- and expect that commodity to retain any value at all.
    Correct, my usage of fair market was more of a value decision between an employer and employee when the final ink is put down on the contract, I probably didn't expand enough on that. There is always "some" value in a laborer who will work for "offered" wages over any other mechanism to create output, it's where the values fall on the curve that I was more alluding to.

    Labor market's like the agricultural market. Only reason anyone can make a living selling their own labor is an intricate web of governmental and industrial schemes to waste, destroy, and otherwise remove as much labor from the market as possible.
    I'm not quite that cynical about it yet, but, there is alot of the above in all of our current markets in general.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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