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Thread: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

  1. #171
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It's funny to me that the pro MW increase side doesn't want to touch the additional unemployment fact, or when they do they blame the employers as if there is some unlimited funding, so much for "caring about the little guy".
    I think their real motivation is their irrational hatred of corporations, not looking out for the little guy, at least in the case of minimum wage.

    Or it's another symptom of feel-good economics that most people are susceptible to (those that are completely uninterested in politics).

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I think their real motivation is their irrational hatred of corporations, not looking out for the little guy, at least in the case of minimum wage.

    Or it's another symptom of feel-good economics that most people are susceptible to (those that are completely uninterested in politics).
    It seems to me that it's a combination, they hate corporations and use people who otherwise don't follow economics to push the agenda, but it seems to be the little guy who owns an S-Corp or other small business that feels all the burdens of this, a terrible irony if that is the case.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    A: We have always had protectionism so it is necessary to the growth of the economy.
    P: Just because it has been there does not mean it is necessary. I could just as easily say that we grew despite that protectionism. Correlation does not prove causation.
    This was the only portion of your post that was even relevant to the thread; the remainder of it was inane response to topics that I repeatedly suggested be discussed in the "Libertarian Socialism" thread (which you have not responded to, incidentally). Now, frankly, I've grown tired of repeatedly stating that the premise of "government = socialism" is a fallacy. You can continue to believe that if you wish, and I'll address such error in relevant threads, but it merely constitutes a derailment here.

    Now, as to your point, I never claimed that the descriptive explanation offered served as a prescriptive justification. For that, I'd simply point to the current role of the state as an integral agent in the capitalist economy through such work as Yu's A new perspective on the role of the government in economic development: Coordination under uncertainty to draw attention to this. When this was last mentioned, you responded by posting an opinion piece from pseudo-anarchist Murray Rothbard, which didn't contain any valid consultation of empirical research or even sound theory, IIRC. Have some more Yu, you.

    This paper argues that the government possesses certain unique features that allow it to restrict competition, and provide stable and reliable conditions under which firms organise, compete, cooperate and exchange. The coordinating perspective is employed to re-examine the arguments for industrial policies regarding private investment decisions, market competition, diffusion of technologies and tariff protection on infant industries. This paper concludes that dynamic private enterprises assisted by government coordination policies explains the rapid economic growths in post-war Japan and the Asian newly industrialising economies.
    And again, also consider this portion.

    [The government] possesses some unique features that distinguish it from the firm. Such features allows the government to regulate competition, reduce uncertainty and provide a relatively stable exchange environment. Specifically, in the area of industrial policy, the government can help private enterprises tackle uncertainty in the following ways: first, locating the focal point by initiating projects; providing assurance and guarantees to the large investment project; and facilitating the exchange of information; second, reducing excessive competition by granting exclusive rights; and third, facilitating learning and diffusion of technologies, and assisting infant industry firms to build up competence. The history of developmental success indicates that the market and the state are not opposed forms of social organisation, but interactively linked (Rodrik, 1997, p. 437). In the prospering and dynamic nations, public-private coordination tends to prevail. Dynamic private enterprises assisted by government coordination explain the successful economic performances in the post-war Japan and the Asian newly industrialising economies. It is their governments' consistent and coordinated attentiveness to the economic problems that differentiates the entrepreneurial states (Yu, 1997) from the predatory states (Boaz and Polak, 1997).
    What your utopianism doesn't capture is that outside of the textbook, capitalism is plagued by numerous deficiencies. We have the likes of asymmetric information and related agency costs and problems, negative externalities, and various market disequilibria to deal with. And in this case, we have oligopsonistic conditions that render the premise that increases in the minimum wage inevitably cause unemployment wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I've made my case, you keep doing this semantics dance and it's really getting old, so I'm done with you. If you can't see that you are a textbook Keynsian socialist I can't help you.
    Reference to a "Keynsian socialist" simply betrays a general lack of understanding of political economy so common among misinformed rightists. Keynesianism is designed to maintain a capitalist state of affairs, not establish the collective ownership and management of the means of production.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post

    Reference to a "Keynsian socialist" simply betrays a general lack of understanding of political economy so common among misinformed rightists. Keynesianism is designed to maintain a capitalist state of affairs, not establish the collective ownership and management of the means of production.
    Keynsian economics necessarily depends on government intervention yes? Which necessarily negates private control of industry yes? which is defacto ownership yes? Then how logically is it anything but socialism. Again, you can't be honest here so good bye.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Here's an ... argument to play with.

    One of the US's most important assets is our consumer base. Our own economy and much of the rest of the world is dependent on our ability to buy products. This asset allows us powerful leverage in our dealings with the world at large.

    Minimum wage increases serve as one means to ensure our baseline consumers can keep consuming.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Keynsian economics necessarily depends on government intervention yes? Which necessarily negates private control of industry yes? which is defacto ownership yes? Then how logically is it anything but socialism. Again, you can't be honest here so good bye.
    This is bullsh!t. Aside from your repeated misspellings of "Keynesian" and obvious misunderstanding of the economic theory (mere "intervention" does not constitute Keynesianism), socialism is "a social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community." Any suggestion that such an economic system is the prevailing norm in this country is simply blatantly wrong. The problem, of course, is that you know absolutely nothing about political theory or economy but want to pretend as though you do.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneam View Post
    Minimum wage increases serve as one means to ensure our baseline consumers can keep consuming.
    been covered already, the price increases from minimum wage catch up to it, and also affects those who earn middle class wages, purchases suffer a net loss.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    This is bullsh!t. Aside from your repeated misspellings of "Keynesian" and obvious misunderstanding of the economic theory (mere "intervention" does not constitute Keynesianism), socialism is "a social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community." Any suggestion that such an economic system is the prevailing norm in this country is simply blatantly wrong. The problem, of course, is that you know absolutely nothing about political theory or economy but want to pretend as though you do.
    Got anything else? You are rehashing the debunked, Keynsian economics depends on government intervention, it's in the theory, this takes away from the customer base, those are taxpayers, government intervention is final assertion of ownership and THAT IS SOCIALISM.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Got anything else? You are rehashing the debunked, Keynsian economics depends on government intervention, it's in the theory, this takes away from the customer base, those are taxpayers, government intervention is final assertion of ownership and THAT IS SOCIALISM.
    Here's how reasoned debate works:

    1. You advance Claim A.

    2. I issue a rebuttal to Claim A.

    3. You respond to my attempt to rebut to Claim A. You do not simply repeat Claim A over and over again in a grating manner. You either stop or issue a sound response.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    socialism is "a social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole community."
    And so a socialist messiah in the White House took possession of General Motor, to the detriment of both the car company and the nation.

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