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Thread: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    How do you talk about low income wages for so long without discussing the affects of immigration on wages?

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    True. Freedome isn't always good for the economy. (but thats another issue)
    Freedome isn't, freedom is.

    But after the US economy became free-er after Reagan, the medium wages of the middle and poor have stagnated. When before this period but after TR, those wages did increase more steadily.
    Logically that doesn't mean a thing. I'm not arguing about a mixed economy, I'm arguing for capitalism.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I believe you are younger than many on the forum, so I'll take it easy on you. It isn't that the wealthy are enjoying a wage increase, more or less they have investments paying off and many have stock options and likewise pay themselves little in actual wages to minimize tax liabilities. The fact is that the market is bringing them up, not the system or some game. And again, middle class and lower class pay has not stagnated, their buying power is lessened by bad money policy allowing the value of the dollar to slip, there is also a ton of hidden tax effects from payroll taxes to unmentioned government taxes, there is a full scale assault, but it isn't capitalism that is doing this.
    For clarity we should be looking at PPR since government products are overpriced and to judge government intrusion as a rough estimate we could use government intrusion of the private national product. I can find some data for PPR up to 1983, but nothing on the latter except for the early years of the depression.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Freedome isn't, freedom is.
    That too :P

    Logically that doesn't mean a thing. I'm not arguing about a mixed economy, I'm arguing for capitalism.
    But where is your evidence that a capitalism economy will grow the fastest? ALL economies are a mixed economy, Singapore, Hong Kong and of course America before TR. On the otherhand, there is specific types of government internvention (not pure capitalism) that helped this nation grow.

    America had a large tariff, internal improvements and states with government programs. So if you are going to claim that this more free system had stronger growth in wages, then I don't see how you can ignore that wages have been stagnant for the majority of people in the United States since the 80's.


    Odviously, it isn't that wages are more stagnant or less stagnant depending on if an economy is mixed or not, but what the specific types of government interventions are.

    America's increases in standard of living before TR are partially due to the great policies of government intervention with a tariff at the beggining of the country and then internal improvements to help expand the reach of industry.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    But where is your evidence that a capitalism economy will grow the fastest? ALL economies are a mixed economy, Singapore, Hong Kong and of course America before TR. On the otherhand, there is specific types of government internvention (not pure capitalism) that helped this nation grow.
    I don't use evidence because evidence is influenced by so many variables that it is nearly impossible to use. Deduction is much more reliable.

    America had a large tariff, internal improvements and states with government programs. So if you are going to claim that this more free system had stronger growth in wages, then I don't see how you can ignore that wages have been stagnant for the majority of people in the United States since the 80's.
    Government spending hasn't really decreased ever.

    America's increases in standard of living before TR are partially due to the great policies of government intervention with a tariff at the beggining of the country and then internal improvements to help expand the reach of industry.
    If that's true then we should have exploded with the Smoot-Hawley Tariff and the New Deal. The fact is that government spending is always less efficient than private spending. That is why PPR was developed.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I don't use evidence because evidence is influenced by so many variables that it is nearly impossible to use. Deduction is much more reliable.
    But unfortuantly people can commonly make mistakes about theoris. That is why without evidence in the real world, a theory is pointless.

    I also have my reasons for why certain types of government intervention helped the US. And that is why there is some good types of government internvention.

    Government spending hasn't really decreased ever.
    But there was dereguation under Reagan. By your theory, that would still increase growth in wages, when in fact the opposite occured.

    If that's true then we should have exploded with the Smoot-Hawley Tariff and the New Deal. The fact is that government spending is always less efficient than private spending. That is why PPR was developed.
    I am the one arguing the every type of regulation or government program should be examined first to determine if it is worthwhile. You are the one that is saying that ALL types of government intervention are harmful.


    By definition, since the early tariff helped the country that means that sometimes government intervention has helped the US.... I don't see how you can support something to absolute when the criteria is just how well something helps our economy. Seriously...

    you can be against MOST government internvention, but you can't be against all of it for purely economic reasons.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    But unfortuantly people can commonly make mistakes about theoris. That is why without evidence in the real world, a theory is pointless.
    But we deduce from things that we know are true.

    But there was dereguation under Reagan. By your theory, that would still increase growth in wages, when in fact the opposite occured.
    I told you that real world evidence is prone to lurking variables. Look at government spending.

    I am the one arguing the every type of regulation or government program should be examined first to determine if it is worthwhile. You are the one that is saying that ALL types of government intervention are harmful.
    Not always harmful, but always inefficient.

    By definition, since the early tariff helped the country that means that sometimes government intervention has helped the US.... I don't see how you can support something to absolute when the criteria is just how well something helps our economy. Seriously...
    I'd say that our economy grew DESPITE that tariff. Real world evidence doesn't help either of us, but deduction helps me.

    you can be against MOST government internvention, but you can't be against all of it for purely economic reasons.
    Economic reasons force me to be against all intervention.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    What their labour is worth is subjective. If you don't agree with the minimum limit set by the state, you're not forced to be an employer.
    Not being forced to be an employer is not the issue, being part of the overall economy is. A minimum price for a commodity set by government legislation effects the economy.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by lincoln View Post
    Not being forced to be an employer is not the issue, being part of the overall economy is. A minimum price for a commodity set by government legislation effects the economy.
    It sure does. We experimented with price controls in the 70s, it got us gas shortages. You know what minimum wage gets us? Labor shortages.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    It is a start! Everyone in this country that holds a job should be paid a living wage and the min. wage needs to be like $10 an hour
    Why $10 an hour? Why not $35?

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