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Thread: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

  1. #121
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Except that that's a ridiculous exaggeration of general governmental policy. The primary purpose of business regulation is by no means day-to-day management; the constrictions of bounded rationality (and related imperfect information) prevent that.
    If the average socialist could see that point, you would be right, unfortunately we are dealing with an emotional sub-set of thought that does NOT realize that this principle exists, these are the types that put minimum wage laws in place and otherwise overregulate to begin with. Even in the best systems, socialism is not fast enough to deal with the rapid changes of a dynamic economic system, and even the most repressed system will become dynamic as the natural laws of econ take effect.
    Even your reference to GM was simply inaccurate, since apart from the mere partial ownership involved, full management options were not utilized, GM does not even constitute the entirety of the auto industry, let alone the means of production, and even complete government ownership of the means of production is not a sufficient condition for socialism since consolidation of power within the control of a state is often purely antithetical to legitimate public ownership and management. This subject has absolutely nothing to do with socialism.
    You are 100% wrong. Factories, labor, management, and even stocks are the means to production, and government now owns a majority share, also, this isn't just GM but Chrysler as well, and the president himself is the reason that there exists a new CEO of GM, that is a form of socialism, is it complete socialism, no, honesty demands I concede that, but there is also the long standing lease system of oil drilling, extremists in the E.P.A., the former Fairness Doctrine, etc. This is socialism. Socialism is any system in which the government owns the means of production, it's not about complete ownership, just ownership, and again, defacto ownership such as the oppressive regulation inherent in most businesses these days is assertion of that premise.


    This isn't even a response to my post, for one thing, and formal "ownership" is often rather distinct from direct management in the capitalist economy, for another.
    It is absolutely a response, direct management comes about because of those very abuses and oversteps that I mentioned, it just takes longer.



    I'm referring to the only valid definition: Socialism is the public ownership and management of the means of production. Your definition is based on the misapplication of the label to authoritarian state capitalism (bogus "socialism") and the mixed economy, which is typically a technique of anti-socialists unable to offer legitimate criticism.
    No, you are contorting the definition to be a 100% or nothing and that isn't the case, so yes, I will call you on it.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    If the average socialist could see that point, you would be right, unfortunately we are dealing with an emotional sub-set of thought that does NOT realize that this principle exists, these are the types that put minimum wage laws in place and otherwise overregulate to begin with.
    You persist with the erroneous description of minimum wage laws as "socialism." Unless you wish to claim that capitalism has never existed, I'd advise you not to apply the term to the mixed economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Even in the best systems, socialism is not fast enough to deal with the rapid changes of a dynamic economic system, and even the most repressed system will become dynamic as the natural laws of econ take effect. You are 100% wrong.
    This thread is not about socialism, so start another thread if you want to discuss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Factories, labor, management, and even stocks are the means to production, and government now owns a majority share, also, this isn't just GM but Chrysler as well, and the president himself is the reason that there exists a new CEO of GM, that is a form of socialism, is it complete socialism, no, honesty demands I concede that, but there is also the long standing lease system of oil drilling, extremists in the E.P.A., the former Fairness Doctrine, etc. This is socialism. Socialism is any system in which the government owns the means of production, it's not about complete ownership, just ownership, and again, defacto ownership such as the oppressive regulation inherent in most businesses these days is assertion of that premise.
    Completely wrong. Socialism is the public ownership and management of the means of production. Government ownership of a portion of a company that's itself a portion only of an industry that's itself only a portion of the means of production is light years away from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It is absolutely a response, direct management comes about because of those very abuses and oversteps that I mentioned, it just takes longer.
    No, it doesn't. As mentioned, the nature of state protectionism actually plays a greater role in sustaining capitalism than attempts to implement laissez-faire policies would, because the government is an integral and necessary stabilizing agent in the capitalist economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    No, you are contorting the definition to be a 100% or nothing and that isn't the case, so yes, I will call you on it.
    Actually, it most certainly is the case. I'm an anarcho-communist, but I'm one of the least sectarian that you'll ever encounter. I acknowledge that markets are not capitalist-specific, for example, and realize that they are merely resource allocation devices that can also exist in a socialist economy. I've even conceded that forms of socialism may be implemented within the context of republican control. However, it's simply incorrect to deny that the public ownership and management of the means of production is both a necessary and a sufficient condition for socialism.

  3. #123
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    You persist with the erroneous description of minimum wage laws as "socialism." Unless you wish to claim that capitalism has never existed, I'd advise you not to apply the term to the mixed economy.
    When did I say or imply such, no, I said the leadup to what we have now is the path, that includes the government assuming majority share ownership of GM, that IS the definition of public ownership. MW by itself is not socialism, it is an overall symptom of overregulation, which is the government making business decisions through law, which IS the definition of defacto ownership. You wrapped this up by mentioning a mixed economy, which is exactly what I have been saying, it isn't a free market, it isn't capitalism, which was what Uretha was asserting as a failed system.



    This thread is not about socialism, so start another thread if you want to discuss it.
    You are the self-proclaimed socialist libertarian here, not me.



    Completely wrong. Socialism is the public ownership and management of the means of production. Government ownership of a portion of a company that's itself a portion only of an industry that's itself only a portion of the means of production is light years away from that.
    Socialism is any degree of public ownership, don't try to wiggle out of this.



    No, it doesn't. As mentioned, the nature of state protectionism actually plays a greater role in sustaining capitalism than attempts to implement laissez-faire policies would, because the government is an integral and necessary stabilizing agent in the capitalist economy.
    History disagrees with you, the most regulated portions of market history are the least productive, protectionism as you are defining it does not work, the two times regulation should exist or immediate public safety(clear and present danger) OR to prevent fraud.


    it's simply incorrect to deny that the public ownership and management of the means of production is both a necessary and a sufficient condition for socialism.
    No, that is the textbook definition.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    No, it's a great way to lose exploitative employers.
    Exploitative as defined by you. How convenient.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    And if a machine can't do it, or the employer prefers the human touch, you deserve a decent wage.
    Why don't you deserve the worth of your labor?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    Pay people a living wage and they will not need to fall back on the state. Let's stop all this crap about poor employers being bled dry. You take on the responsibility of employing people, you don't pay them charity wages.
    The responsibility? You have it all wrong. It is a contract whereby both entrants will be better off. The employer gets the product, the employee gets the value of the labor.

    It's not as if companies just have spare money laying around.

    I'm assumling Roomba is a robot?
    Quality dear boy, and the human touch. Our cleaners are worth thousands of your robots.
    In terms of quality of work there isn't much difference.

    If on a full time wage you cannot afford to lodge yourself decently, to have adequate health care, to feed yourself and clothe yourself without hardship or resorting to a second and even third job, then your full-time wage is not reasonable. That in the same organisation the difference between the lowest and the highest wage can be a hundredfold is obscene.
    Decent lodgings - as decided by you. Full time - as decided by you. Adequate health care - as decided by you. Are you noticing a pattern? You're upset because things are not meeting your arbitrary benchmarks. You're looking at it all wrong.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  7. #127
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    World's largest economy, with how many in poverty? How many of your citizens have no jobs and no health coverage? Yet you've got the means to lift these people out of poverty. It's your system that doesn't work.
    Compare the impoverished of the 1800s to the impoverished today. It isn't even close.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    Not double wages, decent wages.
    Most supermarkets can afford it. Look at their profits.
    You have been fooled into thinking low wages are essential to the functioning of capitalism. If that is true, then the system has failed.
    Wages have been raising steadily, what are you talking about? And profits go toward investing in the means of production. Population in this world is growing you know.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    'Fraid not, sparky. I'm a socialist. If you have an interest in the preservation of capitalism, however, I'd recommend adoption of a Keynesian perspective.
    Keynes that can't explain S&L, the Great Stagflation, nor this most recent crash. The Great Stagflation is most damning since the inflation, according to Keynes, should have made us prosperous.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    At least for my state, I am normally for increases in the mininum wage.

    But with high inflation, a weakened dollar and a bad economy we really can't afford the luxury of an increased mininum wage in most states.


    I am just happy that this push isn't at the federal level, that way the states that are smart enough to not increase their mininum wage will not be harmed. A federal increase in the mininum wage right now would be very harmful.

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