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Thread: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

  1. #101
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    More than likely this will cause more layoffs and slow hiring.

    You can't successfully mandate wage increases and get a favorable outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Incorrect, there will always be job market shrinkage when artificial controls are added or increased such as a minimum wage.
    Here we have a snapshot into the rather incomplete rightist perspective, in which the fact that textbook models of competition are not present in the actual labor market is unfortunately overlooked. In reality, monopsony power (and more broadly, oligopsonistic conditions in labor markets) complicates matters. Firms are confronted with an upward sloping labor supply curve, To simplify all this more, the imperfections of labor markets make things a hell of a lot more complicated than is immediately evident, and claiming that minimum wages increase unemployment is not so cut and dry, considering that the absence of infinite elasticity (few would argue that cutting wages by a cent would result in worker resignation, for example) is an element in the general deficiencies of labor markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmrabe View Post
    I'm sorry, but I've been hearing a bunch of bull**** from faux "free market" people about the pitfalls of a minimum wage for as long as I've been interested in economics and history does not bear that argument out.
    It certainly doesn't. Urethra mentioned the British experience, and it thus seems important to note the realities of minimum wage increases not adversely affecting employment as illustrated by legitimate empirical research rather than crude textbook theory inapplicable to actual conditions. For example, we could turn to Dickens et al.'s (in which Manning is included), The Effects of Minimum Wages on Employment: Theory and Evidence from Britain. Consider the abstract:

    Recent work on the economic effects of minimum wages has stressed that the standard economic model, where increases in minimum wages depress employment, is not supported by empirical work in some labor markets. We present a general theoretical model whereby employers have some degree of monopsony power, which allows minimum wages to have the conventional negative impact on employment but which also allows for a neutral or positive impact. Studying the industry‐based British Wages Councils between 1975 and 1992, we find that minimum wages significantly compress the distribution of earnings but do not have a negative impact on employment.
    Unfortunately, this is the kind of empirical research that the utopian rightists aren't interested in looking into; they'd rather engage in horrible misinterpretations of Adam Smith or copy and paste something from mises.org.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Teenagers are already having problems finding summer jobs, this will make it worse.
    The empirical research into the effects of the minimum wage on teenage employment is somewhat mixed, but is somewhat inclined toward the conclusion that the consequences are generally not adverse. The most oft-cited study into the teenage job sector (specifically the fast-food industry) is probably Card and Krueger's Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Again, consider the abstract.

    On April 1, 1992 New Jersey's minimum wage increased from $4.25 to $5.05 per hour. To evaluate the impact of the law we surveyed 410 fast food restaurants in New Jersey and Pennsylvania before and after the rise in the minimum. Comparisons of the changes in wages, employment, and prices at stores in New Jersey relative to stores in Pennsylvania (where the minimum wage remained fixed at $4.25 per hour) yield simple estimates of the effect of the higher minimum wage. Our empirical findings challenge the prediction that a rise in the minimum reduces employment. Relative to stores in Pennsylvania, fast food restaurants in New Jersey increased employment by 13 percent. We also compare employment growth at stores in New Jersey that were initially paying high wages (and were unaffected by the new law) to employment changes at lower-wage stores. Stores that were unaffected by the minimum wage had the same employment growth as stores in Pennsylvania, while stores that had to increase their wages increased their employment.
    I have a feeling some of us should be reading that instead of Henry Hazlitt.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    No. Companies only have so much money to go around. Guess what happens if they have to pay their employers more? Can you say layoffs? This isn't complicated.
    Actually, it's considerably more complicated than the textbook model of the labor market that you utilize would have us believe, which is why the monopsony model is preferable and more importantly, corresponds with existing empirical research.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If you ignore Say's Law you're going to get burned.
    Say's Law is fallacious in nature, a reality that has been acknowledged by those aware of the nonexistence of perfect competition since Keynes, but of course ignored by those who draw their economic "expertise" from Economics In One Lesson and Peter Schiff's latest blog post. Regardless, the libertarian socialist economist Robin Hahnel notes the following:

    While it is true that every dollar's worth of production generates exactly a dollar's worth of income or potential purchasing power, it is not necessarily true that a dollar's worth of income always generates a dollar's worth of demand for goods and services. Aggregate demand can be greater than income if all actors in an economy as a whole use previous savings, or wealth, to spend more than their current income, or if actors in the economy as a whole borrow against future income. And aggregate demand can be less than income if actors in the aggregate spend less than current income, saving and adding power of current income to their stock of wealth.
    As a whole, the adoption of an approach able to note the negative deficiencies of oligopsonistic conditions in labor markets, the self-correcting balance of supply and demand absent from the imperfections of market deficiencies as a whole, and the presence of market disequilibria, negative externalities, inherent inefficiencies, etc., enables us to note that various facets of capitalism are rather unpleasant indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    I don't believe anybody should be exploited, whether they be sixteen or sixty.
    The minimum wage is not sufficient to eliminate exploitation, and merely serves to counter the negative effects of monopsony. To eliminate exploitation, we'd have to do away with capitalism altogether, something that unfortunately won't be happening in the conceivable future.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    What's worse, is when you are forced to pay someone more than their labor is worth. Thats exploitation.
    When we consider the realities of diminishing marginal utility, would it be overpayment that affected the employer more adversely than the laborer or underpayment that affected the laborer more adversely than the employer? And more importantly, what of the fact that existing empirical research indicates that underpayment is the norm in a significant portion of the labor market (imperfect information of course thrives in the capitalist economy) as well as what I'm always quick to note about the unjust extraction of the surplus labor of workers by those above them?

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    What is crazy is how the capitalist system is what made this country the worlds only superpower with the largest economy but lots of people love to talk about how it doesnt work. kind of strange dont you think
    Yeah, it's pretty odd. Capitalism of course involves extensive state protectionism as the government is an integral developmental and stabilizing agent, and it was by the virtues of interventionism that the U.S. and Britain were able to develop as economic powers of the world, but we still have naive laissez-faire utopians praising the benefits of "free markets" despite their perpetual nonexistence and failing to consider the accomplishments of actually existing capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    It's not capitalism, try again, it's a socialist/capitalist hybrid and the capitalist part isn't what is failing.
    Incorrect. There can be no legitimate compatibility of socialism and capitalism, as they necessitate precisely opposite states of affairs. Socialism requires the public ownership and management of the means of production, whereas capitalism requires the private ownership and management of the means of production. You of course incorrectly consider elements of governmental intervention in the capitalist economy to be "socialism," but that is merely based on a corruption of the economic spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    Gee thanks socialism. You really helped.
    More inaccurate reference to socialism. Socialism requires collective ownership and management of the means of production; is there a single rightist on here who knows what that means?

  2. #102
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I used to play drums about 10 years ago.
    I liked a yellow set of DW's formed out of plastic.

    Are you going to make them wood or other?
    I'm thinking wood if I get around to starting this, have another business I need to get running first before anything though. If I get the ideas I'm working on to work properly then I want to do hardware as well, stands, pedals, brackets, etc. if all of that works I'm not opposed to doing urethane, carbon fiber, acryllic, and plastic drums, or anything else that could add to the scene. Again though, this is more of a hobby into business idea so it will be further back on my agenda.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #103
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Poverty is subjective, unless you are defining poverty as not being able to provide yourself with food, water and shelter.

    If you can provide all of those things with the wages you are earning, you are not impoverished.
    .
    And there are those on low wages who can't, or who do so inadequately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then why entice them to remain stagnant with state benefits?

    .
    You don't, you entice them off benefits with a living wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A book at the library is free or you could own it if you buy it.

    You don't have to be academically bright to get an education.
    There are plenty of places looking for welders, machinists, mechanics etc.
    All requiring a basic education and on the job training.

    It is apathy, if you whine about being poor but do nothing to get out of it.
    The only person you can blame is yourself.

    .
    Oh great, that will go down really well with most employers. I'm not qualified but I did read a book from the library
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Automation is superior to humans because automated machines are consistent with their quality and productivity.

    Humans are not and those no skill fields are slowly being phased out.
    .
    Rubbish. Each time I use the auto check-out at the supermarket there's a problem and it needs the intervention of...........a human being! What's more I prefer the human contact and being greeted with a smile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Capitalism is how nature designed things to work.
    It is a dance of cooperative and competitive behaviors in plants, animals, atoms, everything.

    It is a massive failure that everyone misses this.

    .
    It is a massive failure that people think it's natural.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    WHO health care statistics have already been shown to use subjective measurements when deciding which systems have higher overall efficiency of care.
    Not to mention the fact that a lot of the state systems in Europe are moving portions back to the private market..
    You are ignoring stats which are uncomfortable to you. You believe only what you want to believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You feel adequately paid, others do not. Pay, poverty et all are subjective.
    Any doctor past junior level who feels inadequately paid is just greedy.
    "C'est le dernier qui a parlé qui a raison"
    Amina.

  4. #104
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    All that info you posted
    I'm not using a textbook example, I'm using logic and reality.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Here we have a snapshot into the rather incomplete rightist perspective, in which the fact that textbook models of competition are not present in the actual labor market is unfortunately overlooked. In reality, monopsony power (and more broadly, oligopsonistic conditions in labor markets) complicates matters. Firms are confronted with an upward sloping labor supply curve, To simplify all this more, the imperfections of labor markets make things a hell of a lot more complicated than is immediately evident, and claiming that minimum wages increase unemployment is not so cut and dry, considering that the absence of infinite elasticity (few would argue that cutting wages by a cent would result in worker resignation, for example) is an element in the general deficiencies of labor markets.



    It certainly doesn't. Urethra mentioned the British experience, and it thus seems important to note the realities of minimum wage increases not adversely affecting employment as illustrated by legitimate empirical research rather than crude textbook theory inapplicable to actual conditions. For example, we could turn to Dickens et al.'s (in which Manning is included), The Effects of Minimum Wages on Employment: Theory and Evidence from Britain. Consider the abstract:



    Unfortunately, this is the kind of empirical research that the utopian rightists aren't interested in looking into; they'd rather engage in horrible misinterpretations of Adam Smith or copy and paste something from mises.org.



    The empirical research into the effects of the minimum wage on teenage employment is somewhat mixed, but is somewhat inclined toward the conclusion that the consequences are generally not adverse. The most oft-cited study into the teenage job sector (specifically the fast-food industry) is probably Card and Krueger's Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Again, consider the abstract.



    I have a feeling some of us should be reading that instead of Henry Hazlitt.



    Actually, it's considerably more complicated than the textbook model of the labor market that you utilize would have us believe, which is why the monopsony model is preferable and more importantly, corresponds with existing empirical research.



    Say's Law is fallacious in nature, a reality that has been acknowledged by those aware of the nonexistence of perfect competition since Keynes, but of course ignored by those who draw their economic "expertise" from Economics In One Lesson and Peter Schiff's latest blog post. Regardless, the libertarian socialist economist Robin Hahnel notes the following:



    As a whole, the adoption of an approach able to note the negative deficiencies of oligopsonistic conditions in labor markets, the self-correcting balance of supply and demand absent from the imperfections of market deficiencies as a whole, and the presence of market disequilibria, negative externalities, inherent inefficiencies, etc., enables us to note that various facets of capitalism are rather unpleasant indeed.



    The minimum wage is not sufficient to eliminate exploitation, and merely serves to counter the negative effects of monopsony. To eliminate exploitation, we'd have to do away with capitalism altogether, something that unfortunately won't be happening in the conceivable future.



    When we consider the realities of diminishing marginal utility, would it be overpayment that affected the employer more adversely than the laborer or underpayment that affected the laborer more adversely than the employer? And more importantly, what of the fact that existing empirical research indicates that underpayment is the norm in a significant portion of the labor market (imperfect information of course thrives in the capitalist economy) as well as what I'm always quick to note about the unjust extraction of the surplus labor of workers by those above them?



    Yeah, it's pretty odd. Capitalism of course involves extensive state protectionism as the government is an integral developmental and stabilizing agent, and it was by the virtues of interventionism that the U.S. and Britain were able to develop as economic powers of the world, but we still have naive laissez-faire utopians praising the benefits of "free markets" despite their perpetual nonexistence and failing to consider the accomplishments of actually existing capitalism.



    Incorrect. There can be no legitimate compatibility of socialism and capitalism, as they necessitate precisely opposite states of affairs. Socialism requires the public ownership and management of the means of production, whereas capitalism requires the private ownership and management of the means of production. You of course incorrectly consider elements of governmental intervention in the capitalist economy to be "socialism," but that is merely based on a corruption of the economic spectrum.



    More inaccurate reference to socialism. Socialism requires collective ownership and management of the means of production; is there a single rightist on here who knows what that means?
    Keynsian economics at it's finest eh?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  6. #106
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    By who's definition and what data? Bring something.
    .
    A wage that didn't keep you in poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Just one of many examples:
    Tesco profits top £3bn - Business News, Business - The Independent
    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You are being completely dishonest here, in fact, no one has said low wages are essential to capitalism, only that anything in which it's outlay exceeds it's value is a bad investment, this includes labor. That you aren't representing the argument correctly tells me you are either not understanding this conversation or are lying.
    HAH! I'm ignoring the irrelevent, you're bringing emotion, economics deal in fact, I'm actually ashamed that I am giving you more attention that your value demands.
    Several people have asserted that a decent minimum wage would send companies bust and cause unemployment. That is saying that low wages are essential to capitalism. If anybody's being dishonest here it's you hon!
    "C'est le dernier qui a parlé qui a raison"
    Amina.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not using a textbook example, I'm using logic and reality.
    No, you're not. If you were, you'd perhaps be considering the studies that I cited instead of basing your comments on preconceived ideological stereotypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Keynsian economics at it's finest eh?
    'Fraid not, sparky. I'm a socialist. If you have an interest in the preservation of capitalism, however, I'd recommend adoption of a Keynesian perspective.

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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    A wage that didn't keep you in poverty.
    Numbers? Based ON WHAT DATA?




    Several people have asserted that a decent minimum wage would send companies bust and cause unemployment. That is saying that low wages are essential to capitalism. If anybody's being dishonest here it's you hon!
    Okay, I tried. Here's the deal, we are talking about value, not price, if you refuse to see that they are not the same thing I will leave you to that opinion and wish you luck in your monetary endeavors, because believe me, you'll need it.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  9. #109
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    And there are those on low wages who can't, or who do so inadequately.
    That is a load of crap. You can provide all those things on minimum wage easily, the problems come in when you start putting luxuries over necessities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    You don't, you entice them off benefits with a living wage.
    It already is livable.
    An employer would be stupid to offer more than she/he can afford.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    Oh great, that will go down really well with most employers. I'm not qualified but I did read a book from the library
    If you leave it as simplistic as that during the interview, your absolutely right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    Rubbish. Each time I use the auto check-out at the supermarket there's a problem and it needs the intervention of...........a human being! What's more I prefer the human contact and being greeted with a smile.
    90% of machines problems are user errors.
    Every machine mechanic will tell you this. Its even on the mechanics exams.
    Thats not to say that you did something wrong but it may not have been maintained correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    It is a massive failure that people think it's natural.
    You think capitalism is only about competition when it isn't
    That is the problem with anti capitalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    You are ignoring stats which are uncomfortable to you. You believe only what you want to believe.
    Not true, I read about UHC all the time.

    It only has one benefit over a private market and that is cost.
    Even then costs would be lower if doctors licensing boards wouldn't restrict the amount of doctors licensed every year.
    Quality and time to services rendered are superior in private medical markets

    Quote Originally Posted by Urethra Franklin View Post
    Any doctor past junior level who feels inadequately paid is just greedy.
    Greed is having more than you need, so everyone making more than they need is greedy.
    That would probably include yourself.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #110
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    Re: Higher Minimum Wage Coming Soon

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    'Fraid not, sparky. I'm a socialist.
    'Fraid so, you're quoting it verbatim, including the terminology, and the long since historically false models. And the fact that you are a socialist means you have at some point embraced some form of Keynsian economics as that is the cornerstone economic philosophy of such. Care to refute?
    If you have an interest in the preservation of capitalism, however, I'd recommend adoption of a Keynesian perspective.
    Please, Keynes forgot the basic tenets of economics in favor of an overly mathematical approach and central planning, he entrusted pure numbers to outweigh the dynamics of supply and demand relationships, that isn't a capitalist model, which can shift easily to adjust for changes in demand or within the supply chain, Keynesian theory and socialism cannot.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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