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Thread: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No logical analysis can make it ethical for our elected government to violate the very first principle of governance: the protection of the nation from invasion.
    There's no sound ethical principle that provides a basis for resisting immigration. Conversely, if we approach the issue from a utilitarian perspective, permitting relatively unrestricted immigration (while simultaneously eliminating inequitable international wage differentials through fair trade, of course) is a means to the greatest maximization of happiness.

    For example, we could consider an analogy (of the utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer) wherein there was a nuclear explosion in a region of the world and one nation constructed luxurious and expensive underground shelters that would protect them but another nation neglected to do so and was thus subject to the harmful effects of radiation even after the detonation. If a large number of the residents of the latter nation wished to gain access to the underground shelters of the former nation, but it would require sacrifice of some of the more luxurious amenities of the shelters, most would agree that it would be unethical to not permit them access, because the suffering inflicted on those subject to the effects of radiation would be more severe in intensity, duration, etc. than the suffering inflicted on those subject to the loss of luxurious amenities and commodities. We can thus refer to a sort of "diminishing felicific utility" that's linked to increases in standards of living beyond basic necessities; that is, an expensive wristwatch typically provides less happiness than food and basic shelter does, for example.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Sorry, but my libertarian sentiments prevent me from supporting that sort of authoritarian police state policy,
    You're a socialist, and we all know socialists are against freedom, so you can't be a libertarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    "Invader"?
    Invader.

    I like to use the correct words. It makes the issues clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That won't be tolerated.
    So the invaders aren't going to tolerate people defending their homes and their families.

    And you agree with the invaders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That's a rather poor suggestion for an advocate of capitalism to make.
    Terminating welfare and arresting people breaking the law?

    Yes, that's just tewwible, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Welfare programs are a necessary element of maintaining the stability and efficiency in the capitalist economy,
    Funny, then how the US did so well for so long without it.

    So much for your contention. We didn't have any stupid welfare programs until that socialist pig FDR forced them on us, and the nation did just fine for the 150 years before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    When we keep in mind the fact that unemployment is a form of static inefficiency,
    No. Unemployment is the natural result of not having work.

    Ya ever notice that no economy has ever had 100% employment?

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    There's no sound ethical principle that provides a basis for resisting immigration.
    But there's plenty for resisting an invasion.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is fine. If more money is needed, so be it. Tracking down criminals is worth spending money on.



    Neither is drunk driving. Things don't have to be a felony to be a serious criminal act.
    DUI isn't a serious criminal act. That's why it's not a felony.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You're a socialist, and we all know socialists are against freedom, so you can't be a libertarian.
    The term "libertarian" was coined by anarchists and has since been misappropriated by American capitalists. Socialists support self-governance in both social and economic affairs, whereas advocates of capitalism support economic authoritarianism through hierarchical arrangements in internal firm structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Invader.

    I like to use the correct words. It makes the issues clearer.
    An "invasion" implies the existence of a conscious and focused military objective to eventually overthrow the existing government of a nation-state. Something along those lines was the nature of the European aggression against indigenous Americans, but their descendants have been forced to migrate after destabilization caused by governmental trade liberalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So the invaders aren't going to tolerate people defending their homes and their families.

    And you agree with the invaders.
    Immigrants seeking work and those who wish to aid them will not tolerate aggressive interlopers assaulting and killing them, and will resist them with their own methods if necessary until they're appropriately educated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Terminating welfare and arresting people breaking the law?

    Yes, that's just tewwible, isn't it?
    Actually, I think the termination of welfare might be a sound approach. It would cause the destabilization of capitalism more quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Funny, then how the US did so well for so long without it.

    So much for your contention. We didn't have any stupid welfare programs until that socialist pig FDR forced them on us, and the nation did just fine for the 150 years before that.
    We didn't have corporate capitalism during that period of time either. We instead had relatively agrarian conditions that fostered a far higher level of egalitarianism than is present in the currently existing U.S. economy. FDR was also not a socialist; socialism requires the collective ownership and management of the means of production, and FDR's programs were designed to stabilize capitalism. They didn't even muster Keynesianism. That said, I'm unsurprised to see you again ignoring

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. Unemployment is the natural result of not having work.

    Ya ever notice that no economy has ever had 100% employment?
    Of course I have. That's a necessary condition of the capitalist economy, as noted by Shapiro and Stiglitz in Equilibrium Unemployment as a Worker Discipline Device.

    [T]o induce its workers not to shirk, the firm attempt to pay more than the going wage; then, if a worker is caught shirking and he is fired, he will pay a penalty. If it pays one firm to raise its wage, however, it will pay all firms to raise their wages. When they all raise their wages, the incentive not to shirk again disappears. But as all firms raise their wages, their demand for labor decreases, and unemployment results. With unemployment, even if all firms pay the same wages, a worker has an incentive not to shirk. For, if he is fired, an individual will not immediately obtain another job. The equilibrium unemployment rate must be sufficiently high that it pays workers to work rather than to take the risk of being caught shirking.
    As mentioned, unemployment constitutes a form of static inefficiency. But since a sufficiently high rate of equilibrium unemployment is necessary to prevent workers from shirking, it's a necessary form of static inefficiency, because were it not present, underemployment would exist in the internal firm. External inefficiency thus becomes a necessary form of internal efficiency in the capitalist economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    But there's plenty for resisting an invasion.
    I'm sure. When you spot one, be sure to let us know.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    The term "libertarian" was coined by anarchists
    Yeah, you lost that argument.

    The anarchist coined it because he was trying to lie, as all anarchists will.

    Libertarianism in the US is about liberty, not socialism, and a nation can't have liberty if it permits itself to be destroyed by the first invading horde of illiterates that comes sauntering across the border.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 07-09-09 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yeah, you lost that argument.

    The anarchist coined it because he was trying to lie, as all anarchists will.
    Providing a historically accurate account of the term that capitalists misappropriated and now misuse doesn't quite constitute a "loss," but I'm glad to see that the feds have backed off from messing with our reefer distribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Libertarianism in the US is about liberty, not socialism, and a nation can't have liberty if it permits itself to be destroyed by the first invading horde of illiterates that comes sauntering across the border.
    Libertarianism is incompatible with any economic theory other than socialism, because it requires self-governance, which is incompatible with a state of affairs wherein workers are compelled to subordinate themselves under hierarchical conditions in the capitalist firm. But that's regardless and another derailment on your part, since you haven't provided any evidence of liberty being destroyed by day laborers that really don't have to be literate in English to perform such tasks as they do, although a higher portion of the "Latino/Hispanic" population does believe learning English is important than either blacks or whites.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    I say we should implement a small bounty on them. That could help the cash strapped legal americans. If they report a illegal immigrant that leads to deportation they get a small sum. If you report on a legal person you are fined the same amount (would help avoid people calling on every hispanic they see).

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Nice evasion. Drunk driving is not a felony, but is a serious crime. Being an illegal immigrant is not a felony, but is a serious crime. You may not think it is serious, and that is fine, you are welcome to your opinion, but to many of us, it is serious to have people enter our country without using the legal process.
    Evasion? That particular distinction between malum prohibitum and malum in se is a pretty well-grounded legal idea that we brought over from England a couple of centuries ago. The only evasion happening is your evasion of such an obvious distinction. Comparing drunk driving to illegal immigration is ridiculous, and I showed you why.

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    Re: Schumer: Immigration bill to be ready by Labor Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    Evasion? That particular distinction between malum prohibitum and malum in se is a pretty well-grounded legal idea that we brought over from England a couple of centuries ago. The only evasion happening is your evasion of such an obvious distinction. Comparing drunk driving to illegal immigration is ridiculous, and I showed you why.
    Yeah, we can't stop drunk driving, or even significantly reduce it from where it is now..

    If we try hard enough, we can end the illegal invasion of the United States and reduce the flood of invaders to a level that can be handled without the damage to society the Invasion has wrought.

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