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Thread: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Does he want that power? I dunno, I haven't seen him move that way. Though if he did, it would be political suicide.
    I'm sure it would be.

    The next President would still have the power that he acquired for the office.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I don't see where it does. It states that if you're a natural born citizen you've got all sorts of rights and protections. It doesn't say that you can never lose your citizenship. It doesn't even restrict the circumstances under which you can lose your citizenship.



    It says if you are born in the US you are a citizen....





    can you tell me a scenario that you are thinking one could lose thier citizenship?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Now go ahead and read those sections.
    Here you go, and it is still begging for a point:

    § 2383. Rebellion or insurrection

    Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States


    § 2384. Seditious conspiracy

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.


    § 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government

    Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

    Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

    Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

    If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

    As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.


    Once again, how does this support the desperate and absurd assertion that the Government can just strip you of your citizenship, claim you are a terrorist and imprison you indefinitely Dan?

    If a citizen meets any of the above, they will indeed be given their day in court and the charges will have to be proved; what does this have to do with the detainees in Guantanamo or the Patriot Act?

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    What?!



    They said that they have an interest in doing so.
    What part of "detainee" do you continue to NOT get? The precedent for detaining alien enemy combatant’s indefinitely has been a long established one.

    The thread topic is about Obama's false campaign rhetoric about Bush's actions when he now does exactly the same thing, which happens to be LEGAL and CORRECT I might add.

    So what part of the TOPIC do you not get?

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Why do you make such childish hyperbolic comments?
    It's called humor.

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    It's called humor.
    Sorry about that, I missed that and thought you were being serious.

    Carry on.

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    can you tell me a scenario that you are thinking one could lose thier citizenship?
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Once again, how does this support the desperate and absurd assertion that the Government can just strip you of your citizenship, claim you are a terrorist and imprison you indefinitely Dan?

    If a citizen meets any of the above, they will indeed be given their day in court and the charges will have to be proved; what does this have to do with the detainees in Guantanamo or the Patriot Act?
    Well, let's start with the authority the government already has.

    I can think of a great many citizen's groups, talk show audiences and even militia organizations which could be made subject to a portion of the sections I have cited, if loosely interpreted. Furthermore, there are powers which the government has retained in the face of courtroom challenges which permit the government to secretly bring charges, obtain warrants, and so forth without proceedings ever seeing the light of day.

    It would take a myriad of moving parts brought together in a single legal argument to first strip someone of their citizenship and then detain them indefinitely, but it can be done.



    If we were to expand the argument to powers which the government could easily obtain based on past tactics, how about if they perused the authority to strip "violent" sex offenders of their citizenship and then detain them indefinitely for the safety of our children?

    Possession of child pornography is classified as a violent offense, and given the way the law is worded you can be convicted under the letter of the law for viewing it on the Web even if you didn't know you were about to view child pornography. Even if the case against you is uncertain, the DA can threaten to charge you with Receipt if you insist on going to trial, effectively doubling your sentence for having the temerity to exercise your rights.

    There's a +98% conviction rate for that kind of crime, and for good reason -- a lot of innocent people plead guilty to a single charge of Possession in the interest of reducing their time in prison, and those whose case sees the light of a courtroom end up faced with a jury box stacked with people who are incensed right out of the starting gate.

    The government has acquired a great deal of power by playing on our fears of what a freak with proclivities for children might do to our kids. There has even been talk in New York state (of all places) about detaining convicted sex offenders in psychiatric facilities after they've served their sentence in prison.



    I guess I'll never understand people who accuse the government of usurping power with one breath and then insist that they'd never do that with the next.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You may want to note that the three codes listed under § 1481.a.7 leave lots of wiggle-room.
    Still dont see anything that gives the power for a court or anyone else to strip someone of their citizenship.
    Why dont you quote the relevant text and explain how it allows this.

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Well, let's start with the authority the government already has.

    I can think of a great many citizen's groups, talk show audiences and even militia organizations which could be made subject to a portion of the sections I have cited, if loosely interpreted. Furthermore, there are powers which the government has retained in the face of courtroom challenges which permit the government to secretly bring charges, obtain warrants, and so forth without proceedings ever seeing the light of day.

    It would take a myriad of moving parts brought together in a single legal argument to first strip someone of their citizenship and then detain them indefinitely, but it can be done.

    If we were to expand the argument to powers which the government could easily obtain based on past tactics, how about if they perused the authority to strip "violent" sex offenders of their citizenship and then detain them indefinitely for the safety of our children?

    Possession of child pornography is classified as a violent offense, and given the way the law is worded you can be convicted under the letter of the law for viewing it on the Web even if you didn't know you were about to view child pornography. Even if the case against you is uncertain, the DA can threaten to charge you with Receipt if you insist on going to trial, effectively doubling your sentence for having the temerity to exercise your rights.

    There's a +98% conviction rate for that kind of crime, and for good reason -- a lot of innocent people plead guilty to a single charge of Possession in the interest of reducing their time in prison, and those whose case sees the light of a courtroom end up faced with a jury box stacked with people who are incensed right out of the starting gate.

    The government has acquired a great deal of power by playing on our fears of what a freak with proclivities for children might do to our kids. There has even been talk in New York state (of all places) about detaining convicted sex offenders in psychiatric facilities after they've served their sentence in prison.

    I guess I'll never understand people who accuse the government of usurping power with one breath and then insist that they'd never do that with the next.
    What you continue to NOT get is that in ALL the above scenarios, the Government would have to make a CASE and gather EVIDENCE to strip a US CITIZEN of their citizenship and it would have to go to a COURT of LAW. They would have to meet the Constitutional requirements of Habeas Corpus and the persoin being acused can ask to be judged in a court of law by a jury of their peers.

    The Government does not legally have the right to just break down a US CITIZENS door and arrest you for NO reason without trial and then strip you of your citizenship. NOTHING you have provided supports such a scenario and to suggest that it COULD happen requires the willing suspension of disbelief.

    Once again it begs the question; what does this have to do with alien enemy combatants being held at Guantanamo?

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    Re: Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Once again it begs the question; what does this have to do with alien enemy combatants being held at Guantanamo?
    The government is who is defines what an alien enemy combatant is, and what rights they retain.

    Anything they can do to an alien enemy combatant, they can do to you. Or, to put it less specifically, anything they can do to those deemed the lowest of the low they can do to you.

    All they have to do, to be able to do it to you, is make you fit the definition of the lowest of the low.

    Or, for that matter, adjust the definition to include you.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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